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  • Reply to Res-Q-Jack

    I've been reading and enjoying this board for years, but never posted. It took the posting on the Res-Q-Jack by Cris Pesto of CEPCO TOOL to make me mad enough to register and post.

    I would not think of angrily disputing an opinion offered here in honesty by a firefighter. Those posts are what makes this board great. Cris Pesto’s post is different. This stuff offered as a thin veil by a tool salesman trying to sell his tools opens his posting and product to criticism, particularly when the information could kill someone.

    Cris, I’m sure you’re a nice guy. Now get ready for a woopin’.

    Ron Moore posted a honest challenge to lift a vehicle on it's side 8" to free a victim. Most of us here could do this with airbags, hydraulic Jaws, jacks, or a tow truck – All standard equipment.

    Quote from Cris:
    “I would like to add a few more constraints to the problem: Ground is too rough for stand bases to slide. You have no lift bags or hydraulics available on scene. No tow truck available. A smooth lift with no jumping is desired so don't use a farm jack.”
    End Quote

    Chris’s “Constraints”: Ground too rough for stand bases to slide; OK, this is possible. Maybe this car crashed on a lava cap or something.

    You have no lift bags or hydraulics available: Question; how did the Res-Q-Jack arrive? I think most departments are going to carry them with their hydraulics and airbags.

    No tow truck available: He probably got a flat tire from the lava.

    Don't use a farm or highlift jack: Why not? Firefighters have been lifting vehicles off of victims for over a hundred years with them. Why stop now? They lift something like 6,000 pounds. Res-Q-Jack Stands only lift 4,000 pounds. Not a smooth lift? Oh come-on. Lift a little, crib a little. We’re not dumb.

    Is anyone else seeing through all this to the point that Chris is trying to create an almost impossible scenario where only his tools will work?

    Quote from Cris
    “So that other buttress equipment on the market and our Res-Q-Jack Ratchet Stands have a chance at this, let's neglect the rough ground for a moment so the bases can slide.”
    End Quote

    Okay, so we'll ignore the rough ground for a bit to be fair to the other equipment. Uh-huh. Right.

    Cris wants us to assume 6' struts. Why? All brands we tested went over 8' except the Hurst warthog. ZMAG 4X4 timber pads are as long as you cut the 4X4. Oh, it’s the Res-Q-Jack Jack Stand that won't go that far. Maybe it's the Res-Q-Jack that's too short?

    Okay, nevermind. We're here, and all we have is Res-Q-Jacks, and we’re going to lift the car 8”. Hold on! The manufacturer just posted a message on this board telling us NOT to do that!

    Quote from Cris in “Tensioned Buttress Struts”, posted 6/28/01
    “We don't recommend lifting cars with the equipment. We prefer to have the air lift bags perform this task and simply utilize the Res-Q-Jack features to follow the vehicle up. This redefines "lift an inch, crib an inch"!”
    End Quote

    What’s going on?

    Ah heck, let's ignore the manufacturer and do it anyway. Hold on here; the manufacturer recommends you buy their "3-Point Stabilization System Package". This is what we were told to buy. This kit is ONE Jack Stand and TWO fixed length stands. These bases have cam buckle straps and aren’t designed to slide. Hey, “Ground is too rough for stand bases to slide”. Does that sound familiar? Here's where the danger is, and what you need to heed: If you try to lift a vehicle with the standard Res-Q-Jack system, the Jack Stand (if the one 4,000 pound Jack Stand is strong enough) will lift the car AND PUSH IT SIDEWAYS ONTO THE FIXED STRUTS! I don't know about you, but I think dragging a vehicle sideways over an injured victim is not going to win you any popularity contests with the deceased's family.

    But it's good to know that the Coral Gables competition team has the modified set with THREE Jack Stands. I'm gonna do that too: Let's see, I have the standard set I bought for $1500. Now I need to add two more Jack Stands. $1600 more and an additional 92 pounds! WOW! Now I see why Cris stated you couldn’t use hydraulics or airbags. I had to take them off the squad in order to carry all the Jack Stands to lift the car that is on it's side on the lava cap with the victim under it against the manufacturer's recommendations not to do so.

    Am I being unfair here? I don’t think so. This is a dangerous post by a salesman trying to sell tools, and it could get somebody hurt. He’s created a totally bogus scenario where he wrongly thinks only his tools will work. Not the standard tools, but the set of tools that only a extrication competition team in Florida has! Who’s he trying to kid?

    That’s what’s got me so mad.

    I’ve never touched or seen a Res-Q-Jack. That doesn’t mean that I don’t understand how it operates, and see the flaws therein. Just to be fair and let you know how I know what I know about Res-Q-Jack and the other brands, we are in the middle of evaluating struts. We started with this list: Airshore, Alpha Rescue “Crutch”, Cappa “Bearclaw”, CEPCO Tool “Res-Q-Jack”, Hurst “Warthog”, Paratech, Rescue 42 “Telecribbing”, Rescue Logic “VSU”, and ZMAG “Groundpad”.

    Airshore and Paratech were eliminated due to size. We have them for trench and heavy rescue on the big collapse trailer, but they are too big, bulky and too expensive for all the Trucks and Squads.

    ZMAG ground pads and Cappa bearclaws were eliminated because we didn’t have the room for all the long 4X4’s, and didn’t want to have to break out saws and start cutting wood to stabilize the cars.

    The Hurst warthog was tested, and was too short, too hard to use, and didn’t come close to the other tools. It also cost a fortune. It has been discontinued by hurst and re-released by Airshore, but it’s still the same tool, so we easily eliminated it.

    The Alpha Rescue crutch is only available from Florida, and is a very basic tool without the accessories of the other tools. There is no short strut. We eliminated this tool.

    We wanted to test the CEPCO res-q-jack. We contacted them for the name of the local vendor and found that there wasn’t one within 1,500 miles of Southern California! We asked for a demo and training, and were told that that wasn’t possible. He said “Just buy them. You can return them if you don’t like them. You really don’t need training.”. We asked for the nearest vendor to get quotes, and found they were in Alabama or Illinois! We contacted them, and they said that they would sell us tools (surprise, surprise), but would not support them with a demo or any training. They told us to contact CEPCO for training. Eliminated.

    We just tested the Rescue 42 Telecribbing and the Rescue Logic VSU. We all compare notes next week, but it’s not even a contest. I’m not going to jump the gun here, so I’ll stop at that.

    Sorry to be so long. I hope I made my point. I feel much better.

    This posting is an opinion; mine. It does not reflect the opinion of my department.

  • #2
    Well put. You said a lot of things that I can't but agree with. It sounds like you and your department do things the right way. Ads and opinions are just that, if you really want to see what is best for you, try and use the equipment. Don't just blindly go on internet opinions or trade show booth flare. I comend you and I'm sure that either Mitch's or Tim's equipment will serve you well. Please don't misread this as sour grapes but you did fall prey to one common misunderstanding. You don't really need a huge supply of long 4x4's for the Ground Pads. We have found through a few thousand set ups that 2-3 footers, and 2-5 footers will be your bread and butter choices for about 90-95% of your evalutions. I also came out with a 4x4 coupling about 2 years ago. So now your 3's and 5's become an 8. Add this to your standard 18" cribbing that I know you have a whole compartment full of and your mathmatical combos are endless. Good luck with your decision and keep me in mind for the next time. By the way, as always, you don't have to buy my stuff to see if it works. I have always and will continue to offer tools on trial basis. Use them and abuse them, if you like then fine, if not send them back at no charge. I guess I just have more confidence in my tools then my competitors.



    • #3
      Indeed, well put, you cannot go around making up scenarios just to fit your dream stabilization job. Departments that ask me to come out and do demos for them always ask me "What kind of car would work best for you?" I don't know about some folks but I can only reply that "We don't get to pick them on the highway, so I'll take whatever you throw at me."

      Sure all tool vendors can come up with a classic only our tools will do this but, in the real world we do what we have to with the hand we've been dealt.

      be safe


      • #4
        Rumor has it that a challenge is going to be issued (Tool vs Tool) at the Northeast Extrication Competition and Learning Symposium at the Conn. Fire Academy this weekend., Waiting to hear the results. Just Sorry I am not going to be there. I have to work on Saturday and will be working Sunday with Race Services Inc at WGI, SCCA Nationals in the beautiful Finger Lakes of Central NY!

        [ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Carl Avery ]
        Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
        Carl D. Avery


        • #5
          Sorry Carl, It didn't happen. Seems like I was the only tool supplier there to support the teams. But I can tell you that All 13 trophies that got carried home went to teams that elected to use "Blue Tools". Maybe next time we can set up the challange.



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