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hydraulic tools vs battery Dewalt (sal-saw)

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  • RES14CUE
    replied
    We carry both Dewalt 24V Recip and Have an Amkus Ultimate system. I firmly believe that our cutters(either speedway or nomal) cut much faster than the saw. We do sometimes use both at the same time. That way while the Hydraulics are operating, those with free hands can cut, making extrication time that much quicker.

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  • Rescue 101
    replied
    I really love this stuff.Since I was one of the first instructors in Maine to advocate recip saws for extrication rescue I'll take Rescue 14 to the task.Bud you don't live far from me,so let's hook up sometime and we'll do a learning curve exercise.I like Hyds. too but I teach and enforce a Carl Avery attitude. Adapt,improvise or get out of my way.Use many tools in combination.Put your best people on them,and train and hammer on the Wannabes.The junkyard is the place to learn,not on the road.My advice,there is about 3 blades by manufacturer that I will use.These blades in a Good Saw in TRAINED HANDS will smoke a cutter.Key points; a saw with nuts and a GOOD blade.I'd love to do some training with you,this is the stuff I live for.Let's do it and butcher some iron.Plus if you got a winch on yer wagon I can show you some tricks with that.Stay safe and watch the tourists.T.C.

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  • xe1rcf
    replied
    I belong to an all volunteer squad here in Mexico City, I have to say first that the price of a cip saw is many times smaller than the hydraulics (any brand) and that is a very hard to beat advantage for volunteers like us, here we barely use the jaws or combos since the cips can do a roof in less than 3 minutes, we still use the rams though, but cheap porto power units do the same for less so we prefer this ones.
    I agree that spreaders and cutters have their place, however we consider cips as the primary tools, we just love to see the faces of other companies here (that only use hydraulics) when we finish a job when they are just starting the engine on.

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  • RSQLT43
    replied
    1. Blade selection
    2. Operator
    3. Quick change chuck
    4. Stroke length
    5. Adjustable foot
    6. Power
    7. S.P.M.

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  • Carl Avery
    replied
    Originally posted by resqb:
    <STRONG>And as for cooling the blades, when you don't have more than 5 people on the operation, you don't have the people to waste on making a blade last longer. Sometimes I miss the old volunteer days, 20 people on an extication .....memories </STRONG>
    Sorry those times, they are a changing. Resources in the volunteer sector are drying up faster than spit in death valley. We all are short handed now and therefore need to be efficent and proficient with all our options and Cip-saws are one of those options

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  • resqb
    replied
    Unfortunately the only time we pull out the cip saw is in training. Our problem is that the powers that be won't buy us a cordless saw. We only carry corded saws on the rig, so O-cutters are the way we play.
    And as for cooling the blades, when you don't have more than 5 people on the operation, you don't have the people to waste on making a blade last longer. Sometimes I miss the old volunteer days, 20 people on an extication .....memories

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  • roadwayrsq
    replied


    OK I would say :
    1 blades (still is the key)
    2 stroke length (uses more of the blade)
    3 the operator! (can any monkey do it?)
    4 speed
    5 power (amps)

    In my humble opinion that's order I would rate it. Blades are still the key-if you are using cheap blades well guess what, you get what you pay for (atleast in this frame). Stroke length I would say would be next, better to use as much of the blade as possible. The operator plays a big key with this tool-this isnt a tool you can turn the key & walk away.

    Back at you Carl!

    Be safe,
    Dave D

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  • Carl Avery
    replied
    Question for you all, in your opinion, rank what makes the biggest difference in Cip-Saw performance
    A-Power of the Saw - Come on be real, reveal the Tim the Tool man with in
    B- Blade Selection - Are Demo/Rescue Blades really worth the difference?
    C- Stroke Length - is Longer really better?
    D- SPM - is faster better, or does slow make it go?
    E Cord or Cordless - is the freedom all it is cracked up to be?
    So when you're putting a Cip-Saw in service on your peice how do the categories above impact your decision as what to use? Come on I'd like to hear what is most and least important to you and why you made. or would make those choices

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  • Daron
    replied
    From what we have found out here. Demo blades of high quality are a must. They may cost a little more but they will will double or even triple you cutting ability. One thing I haven't heard much talk about is the saw as a back-up. If the power unit fails, you have 2 extrications going at the same time, somebody screws up and you can no longer get a good purchase point,anything can go wrong. The best I have been able to come up with is to use them both at the same time. With a little teamwork this works.

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  • AVF&R452
    replied
    RSQLT,

    I don't think that they were demo blades. They were hardware store specials that we were using. The Lenox blades are the best we have found. The problem was the saw was running the operator, not the otherway around. After 4 blades I handed him a hacksaw, You guessed it, He broke the blade on it before we could get another blade for the Dewalt. After a while he got the idea. Practice makes perfect. This was the first time he had operated a saw of this type. I don't think we are going to let him forget about it anytime soon.

    Stay Safe,

    Jim

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  • RSQLT43
    replied
    AVF&R, did you have demolition blades in the saw? I have wore out about a hundred Lennox 960r blades in practice and on calls, and can honestly say that it is damn hard to even put a slight bend in one of these blades,I dont know what you would have to do to break one.

    We carry an assortment of blades, from 6in. to 12in., from 6tpi to 18 tpi, but for normal auto extrication,posts and doors and dash, we like the aggressive tooth extra thick demolition blades.

    As for what Ron said about the wood blade for cutting metal, we had to do the opposite a few years ago, a man ran off of the road and went thruogh a wood fence, a fence rail tore through the drivers door, went through the drivers belly, and lodged in the passengers door, we used an 18 tpi metal blade to cut the board, this blade cut very well, with less vibration and movement that would have resulted from using an aggressive wood blade.

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  • AVF&R452
    replied
    All,
    Tried our new 24V Dewalt last week, as expected, It was Great! All the power of our 110V Milwaukee Super Sawzall without the cord. I cut the A,B, and C posts in well under 1 minute, Then handed the saw to the probie on the other side of the car. He proceded to break 4 blades on the C post alone. Gotta love probies! Kinda proves that the tool is only as good as the operator... a fact well known in the fire service.

    I think that all the tools have their place. the Dewalt 24V is NOT a replacement for the hydraulics or even the Milwaukee 110V saw. It is a great addition to the toolbox. I'm sure that we will give it a workout and find out just what it can and cannot do. I don't think we are ready to dump the hydraulics just yet.

    Stay Safe,

    Jim

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  • rmoore
    replied
    A Posting From Forum Moderator Ron Moore:

    Recip saw blades will effectively cut both decorative and "structural" plastic, rubber, foam rubber, mastic adhesive, even styrofoam material if the proper tooth-per-inch blade is matched to the proper blade strokes-per-minute speed and used properly by an experienced recip saw operator.

    A course-tooth blade is more effective with these materials than a finer tooth one. Consider 10tpi for metal cutting or no more than a 14tpi blade. An 18tpi or 24tpi will be a useless "butter knife".

    I like to demonstrate roof removal with a 5/8 vari-tooth wood blade on the DeWalt 24v. It really cuts through roof pillars if the operator is just as mean and aggressive as the blade is.

    Your saw should be a variable speed unit. Just like the gas pedal on your car, you don't always have the 'pedal to the metal'. Same principle with a vari-speed recip saw. Feather your cutting speed, favoring a slower stroke-per-inch if there appears to be a build-up of plastic junk at the cut.

    Keep the shoe on the metal and you'll succeed.

    Regarding cutting wiring with a recip saw, it's the same principle as trying to use a seatbelt cutter to cut a slacked seatbelt. The webbing of the belt has to be drawn tight in order for the knife blade to do its job. A recip saw that is being asked to cut a wiring harness won't work if the wires are loose and move all over the place. Pull the electrical wiring tight and you'll be more successful.

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  • Carl Avery
    replied
    Good points Skip, also removing plastic molding is in good keeping with the Strip before you Rip idea. That is exposing the interior of the car so we can see hidden devices such as SRS inflators and or pretensioners. Also please note that Milwauklee has a feature (I believe it is on their super Sawzall) this limits the SPM that a saw can make, Almost Firefighter proof (there still is a switch, so it could be frigged up). No doubt about though, it is where metal meets metal that makes the biggest difference. Dare I say this? Even more so than more power! The blade is the key!

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  • skip rupert61
    replied
    Great thread here...lets keep it going. Like my buddy Dave said, I think it is the blade more than the saw. I am not an advocate of cooling solution. Like Carl mentioned, you loose a rescuer. However, what I would suggest is to remove the plastic trim before cutting. It takes a few seconds with a large screwdriver, wonderbar, small pry-bar or whatever you use. THe heat of the blade will melt the plastic and gum up the teeth. Another thing to try is slowing down the saw. Yes, faster is not always better. I got this tip from Bobby Williams when he was with Power-Hawk. According to Bobby, both DeWalt and Milwaulkee says the optimum cutting speed for the metal we run into is 1600-1800 strokes per minute (spm). When hooking up the Milwaulkee saw to the Power-Hawk power source, it is slowed to 1600 spm and I must say it cut real nice. Give it a try and see if you like it. Now I know that telling a rescue tech to run a saw at 3/4 speed during a rescue is like speaking to my 9yr old. He doesnt listen either. But give it a try. As far as blades, I'm still stuck on the Lennox 10-14 tpi blade. Guess change doesnt come easy to me. Keep it coming fellow rescue techs...

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