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360 walk around on the jeep roll-over

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  • 360 walk around on the jeep roll-over

    I was kind of shocked when I saw how many FF's would jump right in and start doing stuff before doing a 360 scene size-up. Am I reading to much into it and thinking no one has done a 360 walk-around? I have been on more MVA's than I care to think of, so I can understand the urge to jump right in get on with it and go for what you see. But in the pics we only saw the drivers-side front corner view, driver-side door view and rearview of the vehicle/scene. What could there have been on the passengers side of the jeep that went unnoticed due to the tunnel vision? Could there have been a lightly trapped infant in a car seat? Do we know until we look?

  • #2
    My thoughts exactly!

    Comment


    • #3
      In another thread this smae topic is being discussed. The point being that the decision point states that you were assigned to perform a task. When you are assigned (at least in my company) the 360 has been completed. I realize that it is a very short amount of time to walk around a car but everyone has a job to do and the 360 size up is the extrication and/or Safety officers job. If you were assigned to perform an extrication then that is your job. Freelancing is counter-productive.
      Not trying to sound forceful, just attempting to thoroughly state my case.



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      Shawn M. Cecula
      Captain
      Lewiston Fire Co. No. 2

      Comment


      • #4
        Again, as I stated in the other thread, even if you have done your 360 walk around I think the next action should be vehicle stabilization.

        I will agree the freelancing is couter prodctive and it also gets people hurt or killed. I think I'll fall back to "the scenario was lacking in needed information"

        Comment


        • #5
          LewistonCapt,

          Nice to be on here again with you brother!!

          Replying to your post, that you state its the safety officers job to do a 360, I disagree. Its his job to do 360's, (plural) during the operational phase. Its the firt arriving officers job to do a 360. Textbook 2, one in the "hot" area and one in the "warm" area. To me its the same as pulling up on a structural fire. This allows you to get an overall grasp on the scene, and to check for anyone who may have been ejected, and for any other hazards that may cause a problem.

          Secondly, I don't know what incident your exactly talking about however, no vehicle should be worked on without being stablized. The only exception I can think of is if its on fire and you can't quickly extinguish the fire.

          Just wanted to through in my .02.....

          --------------------------------------------
          The above is my opinion only and doesn't relfect any dept./agency I work for, am a member of, or deal with. Also I never intend to bash anyone, I only state my opinion on what I read, Lewiston can confirm this for me, from our other topic postings together, so please do not get defensive.

          Comment


          • #6
            Let me clarify, I missed the "s" when I typed. Safety officers should be wearing out a path in doing their 360's. Also the questionis in reards to the "You Make the Call" Jeep Rollover in U of E. I Agree that before any cutting ripping or tool time the vehicle should be stabilized. Which is what brings me back to "Your team is assigned to force open this side of the vehicle so the driver can be extricated." to me this implies that all steps up to this point have been accomplished, which can be seen from the cribbing in the picture.

            I too have been the victim of thinking too much or lacking information at a decision point. Some times I have come back to pictures 6 times and seen something new each time.


            ------------------
            Shawn M. Cecula
            Captain
            Lewiston Fire Co. No. 2

            Comment


            • #7
              After 26 years in the fire service, I have the learned that if you imply by what you see or are told you are doing the same thing when you "ASSUME" and we all no what that means.

              To be a proficient rescue officer, it is my opinion that you MUST make your own size up, regardless of who has performed one prior to your arrival. Not everyone operates or thinks the same.

              Don't be sorry because someone else overlooked something or conditions changed between thier wlak around and when you start your op's.

              Remember, when you are the rescue officer, you are responsible for all aspects of the rescue operation.

              Just my thoughts and don't take it wrong.

              Stay safe and have fun!!!

              ------------------

              Comment


              • #8
                I just wanted to agree with the points made by the previous posts that state that no matter what, you should do a 360.

                I don't care if I am the fifth engine company in on an extrication situation and the first 4 companies, safety officer, extrication officer, Chief, Assistant Chief, or anyone else that has already preformed a 360, I am still going to do my OWN 360, because now I have not only the victim that I have to keep from creating further injury, but I also have other firefighters' and EMS personnel that are counting on me to do my job without creating a further problem. I respect the comment that freelancing is counter productive, however, I do not feel that remaining safe is counter-productive nor freelancing, I consider it doing a thourough job.

                Even IF, I had ***-U-MED that the 360 had been done, I would have moved to the next step wich would have been to stabilixe the vehicle.

                That is just my $.02 cents worth.

                Be safe and keep putting the wet stuff on the red stuff.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I feel the need to re-state my position.

                  It is the job of teh Officer in charge, athe safety officer and extricaton officer to perform 360° surveys of the extrication. The OIC is often the first on scene and should be perfoming the size up to evaluate what equipment will be needed. The safety officer and extrication officers in my company usually arrive at the same time and do their own 360°s with the safety officer doing multiple inner and outer 360s to ensure that everything is proceeding safely. The extrication officer is doing his own 360 to determine how to best perform the extrication, which inclused stabilization, where to cut, making sure glass is taken out, and that the battery is cut.

                  Now, if I understanme of the rest of you, you think that it would be correct to allow each member of the crew that will be performing the extrication to do their own 360. To me that seems like a waste of time. And as the arguement has been made before that it is only a little amount of time. I choose to look at it as that is more time that this person who is already scared and hurt has to sit in that car until we get them out.
                  I realize that things can be missed during a size up. But if everyone has to do their own size up and then a committee is formed to come to a concensus on how to perform the extrication then we are not functioning efficiently. Any problems encountered during the extrication should be addressed at that time.
                  If you do not trust your officers enough to do what you are told, and that is not ASSUMING anything, then there are much larger issues that need to be addressed.
                  IMHO if everyone starts doing their own 360 then that encourages freelancing. We all need to be on the same page and working toward the same goal. And the IC and those doing the 360°s are our conductors to ensure that we are reading from the same sheet of music.


                  ------------------
                  Shawn M. Cecula
                  Captain
                  Lewiston Fire Co. No. 2

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think my post was pretty clear in stating that you as the "RESCUE OFFICER" spells out who I was stating must do a walk aorund.

                    In my dept the rescue officer is in charge of the extrication and his/ her crew rely on that officer to perform the walk around and establish the appropriate extrication plan, the crew stays with our heavy rescue until advised by the Rescue Officer to start the rescue/ extrication operation.

                    I agree that not EVERY MEMBER should perform a walk around, because it does contirbute to free lancing and an inefficient operation. BUT it is MY OPINION that the Rescue Officer MUST, MUST, MUST perform a walk around.

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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OK Gang, Boy did I ever trigger something here. But as with everything in the Fire service there are a multitude of ideas on how to achieve the same goal. Now I feel rather silly for being the victim of my own original accusation of tunnel vision, when I did not read the statement thoroughly. I kind of missed the part where it states, "You are assigned to do". By missing one small thing look at the list of replies that have come in. Which does in a weird way lead me back to my original point. Have we seen all that there is, that is on the scene. As a member assigned to a crew we must always be on the lookout for things as the scene evolves. But we must rely on our rescue officers and have faith in their ability to perform their duties as so assigned. I don't believe that every member of the extrication team needs to do a walk around. But they all must keep their eyes open and be aware of their surroundings as well as that of their brothers and sister's on the scene.

                      Be good and stay low

                      Mike

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Shawn,
                        When I posted my reply to the forum, I was NOT trying to attack a fellow brethern in thier views. ALSO, I am going to clarify MY point.
                        NO, I do not feel that EVERYONE should do thier own 360. What I was stating...well let me preface this comment. When my department is actually going to cut, there is a "crew" HOWEVER, there is ONE person on that cut assignment that is going to be the crew leader on the cut. The team that is actually doing the cut, is supervised by this lead team member as well as a officer or the safety officer keeping an eye on the situation. The CREW LEADER should preform his own 360 BEFORE he allows himself and his team to make the cut. I was ***-U-ME(ing) that I was THAT crew leader and in that case I WOULD do my OWN 360 so that I knew exactly what I was getting into. If I was NOT the crew leader of the cut team, I would NOT do my own 360 in a time crunch situation. So, I guess I am saying that I agree with part of what you said in that everyone should not do thier own 360, but at the BARE minimum, someone actually ON the cut crew, should know FIRST HAND what that crew is going to do. I was not trying to second guess you, just trying to state my point on matter.
                        Thanks for giving me a new perspective though. I look forward to seeing your responses in the future.

                        Your Brother in the service,
                        Rob

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I apologize if I came across as defensive. I was just making sure that my point was clear. I wasnt sure that I was being understood. I value and appreciate the information and knowledge exchanged in these forums and would hope to continue to learn new ways to do my job better through others experiences.


                          ------------------
                          Shawn M. Cecula
                          Captain
                          Lewiston Fire Co. No. 2

                          Comment

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