Isuzu Rollover

[Lewiston2Capt]

I have a few questions regarding this scenario.
1. At the first decision point all of the answers present hazards to the responders. I rank the electrical system being intact, and the oncoming vehicles (depending where the responding vehicles are staged and how the blocking was accomplished)the most dangerous at this point. No real question here just thought I would present my logic so that everyone has the whole thought process.
2. Decision point 2 my understanding is that the walk around was completed by the officer on scene. I think that gathering tools while the vehicle is being cribbed would be the best choice. There is usually a way to get to the battery and stabilization may make access a little easier. What I would like to know is what other peoples considerations were when they gave their answer.
3. Decision point 3, I think that the window opening being reduced, which the passenger space has been reduced would be a cause for concern and make the extrication more difficult because determining the exact position of the patient is difficult and the she may be resting against the door you want to remove. What was everyone else thinking when they answered since it appears that I am not agreement with the majority.
Ron, your input would also be greatly appreciated.



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Shawn M. Cecula
Captain
Lewiston Fire Co. No. 2

[ccsr12]

I think that both the electrical system and on coming traffic would be my first concern. By the damage to the front of the SUV, the believe that the front air bags would still be charged. Second, oncoming traffic is a real concern to the safety of the crew. Front the pictures it does not show any truck blocking oncoming traffic. Just three days ago there was an officer killed when trying to get out of the way of a Jeep while work a 10-50 pi on a bridge. His squad car wasn't blocking oncoming traffic.

Second question: I would stay that the battery is a lost cause. Even with the right cribbing, there is to great of a risk in moving the SUV enough to get to the battery. I believe that command should be told that there is no way to get to the battery but that the SUV should but turned off and the keys giving to the Officer In Charged.

Third question: I believe that trying to enter the SUV at the front door should not be done. Some of the weight is being supported by that door. Plus by removing the door you may displace the A post and cause more problems. I would try either removing the second door back or enter the rear cargo area. The patient could also be remove by rear cargo door.

2nd Lt. David Little
Clay County Search and Rescue

[B.Bottomley]

I agree that in sceniaro 1 that with the car's lights still on and no way to get to the battery itself, turning off the ignition would be the safest way to de-energize the car's electrical system. With the concern for extracating the patient from the vechile, and the driver being entrapped in the car.. due to the damage of the drivers side door.. steps I would take would be to crib both front and back to first stabalize the car on all 4 sides.. and if available use the passenger door to extracate, if not feasable.. to raise the car with airbags (or spreaders if no air bags are available) and cribbing and then open the drivers side door to remove the occupant.

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[rmoore]

A posting from Forum Moderator Ron Moore

Decision Point 1 "food for thought".....

The focus of this first decision point is scene safety and hazard recognition.

For those of you who saw the headlights shining onto the roadway, would you have discovered that hazard just as readily if it were a bright sunny day? Make sure you always check.

Those who focused on the moving traffic hazard, good thinking and excellent attention to real-world possibilities.

This vehicle is on a limited access expressway in our city. As such, we respond a tandem-axle Quint company along with the medic unit and engine company just due to crash location.

The primary objective of that Quint when they arrive is to effectively "block" for the crew members working the crash scene.

Have you ever considered an SOP such as this that sends crews to respond for such a vital function? Why not?

More later.....

Ron

[rmoore]

Decision Point 1, more "food for thought"

Of all the five concerns listed, the only one that is not truly a hazard of any magnitude is #1, leaking windshield washer fluid. Thus far, the second most popular choice of our participants is #2, approaching traffic on the roadway.

Response #3, heat from the exposed catalytic converter and exhaust system is a concern but unless you plan on climbing up onto the undercarriage or throwing your tools up there, I'm not too worried about it.

I believe that the real hazard related to choice #4 is not just collapse as much as it is unwanted vehicle movement. The vehicle can settle downward as a door is opened or the vehicle can shift and slide in any direction. Any weight from a rescuer climbing in the rear window could cause a settling or shifting of vehicle position. So, stabilization of a rollover is a must and stabilization must eliminate any of these unwanted moves.

How do you do this? Remember, don't block any doors that you need to get opened. Do you roll cars over in training sessions to get good at this? Why not?

Ron M

[rmoore]

Decision Point 1, still more "food for thought"

The challenges related to vehicle battery is an important one brought out by this first decision point. Anytime I ask a participant in a University of Extrication seminar how they shutdown vehicle electrical systems, I hear, 'we open the hood then we...'

Knowing that the battery in this Isuzu IS actually under the hood, in a rollover crash, you do not have quick and easy access to it. So what do you do?

At least while we're thinking about this, let's shut the ignition off and shut off the headlights.

If you look closely you'll see that in fact the passenger's front door has sprung open during the crash. There may not be any extrication involved here...no cutting and pushing and tearing up the Isuzu. If that were the case, I'd have the crews work on longboarding the occupant with the battery still intact. Scan the interior for loaded airbags and maintain proper 10"-18"-5" clearance from the airbag inflation zones.

If extrication is required and you need the electrical system shutdown, consider any alternative access openings to the engine compartment;
through a front headlight opening-
through a fender-
through a wheelwell-
down from the undercarriage-

In your extrication training, have you ever rolled a vehicle onto it's roof and simulated the need to access the battery in the engine compartment? Why not? It's real-world! Give it a try.

[Squad15]

I agree with initial actions posted. In regards to stabilization and access. Would it not be feasible to box crib on either side of the vehicle. Then run a 4"x6" through the side vent window opening just ahead of the rear posts. Remove or drop the roof and take patient(s) out the rear of the vehicle. Any comments would be appreciated in regards to this tactic for vehicle rollovers. Thanks

[skip rupert61]

How would you stabilize? How about some sort
of box crib under "A" post at the firewall and then a secured buttress system (a buttress system that allows the use of a strap to secure it in place) at the rear bumper. Now I know Ron calls these tensioned buttress, but all buttress are tensioned. The secure buttress system, ZMAG Ground Pads as an example, would keep the vehicle from "settling" after the door is opened and/or removed as would the cribbing under the "A" post. Using a secured buttress system keeps all doors available as well as the rear. I really like taking the secured buttress to the side rear window and making the footprint real wide. Hey, Bobby Labonte proved wider is better. Using the ground pads to the side of the rear window, I have been able to remove a roof (in training) on a vehicle on its roof without the vehicle crashing down. Pretty neat trick that probably wont be used on the street, but does show the effectiveness of the secured buttress system.

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Skip Rupert
Shrewsbury Fire CO, PA
[email protected]

[Lewiston2Capt]

Actually we have used something similar. Once we had a pick-up rollover with 3 trapped. (2 DOA) We removed the roof and used it as a backboard for the pt. Worked pretty well and the vehicle didnt settle.



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Shawn M. Cecula
Captain
Lewiston Fire Co. No. 2