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5-10-20 how much room does this leave us?

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  • 5-10-20 how much room does this leave us?

    I am a supporter of the 5-10-20 inch rule for SRS Air Bags. You know the one the tells us to give undeployed Side bags 5 inches clearence, Passenger bags 20 inches clearence and 10 for drivers side bags. My Question to the Group is this. If we create these imaginary (not the best word for what I mean but I cannot think of a better word at this time) Strike zones arround ALL SRS Air Bags, How much room does this leave us to work? Should we be approaching our patients from Behind? and now with Roof SIPS ( and other such devices) where do we stand as far as a safe work Zone. I can see appoaching patient care from behind has some advantages, but also will grant anyone there are draw backs too. Lets hear what you have to say?

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    Carl D. Avery

  • #2
    Carl your right, if you need that extra distance you can remove the seat back with caution. There may also be a electronic or pyrotechnic ignitor line there as well.

    For all of us waiting for an end to this SRS nightmare, hopefully news will be leaking out soon about a new device that will assist us all. Until then, be patient, exersice caution use the "5-10-20 Inch Rule of Thumb" for airbag safety. Remember, the airbag manufacturers, the automobile manufacturers and NHTSA-DOT do not want you to restrain or cut into an airbag system.

    To be honest, Moore came up with the distancing, he uses the figure of 18 inches for the passenger frontal. I just rounded it off and put them in sequence starting from the driver side and rotating clock wise to the passenger side. If you can remember the number "5" and double it for the driver to get "10" and double that to get "20" inches, it seemed resonable people would remeber a general rule of thumb for distancing.

    The safest way to reduce injuries or severity, is by distancing yourself from an active airbag. Not by restraining or trying to disarm them.

    A word of caution for those that don't already know, beaware of Dual Action Airbags, the automobile manufacturer not the airbag manufactures determine the delay firing sequence. What appears to be a deployed airbag, may actually be a partially deployed system. According to one of the airbag manufacturers, it is posible that both stages may have fired or either of the two stages may be deployed giving the responder false security in that the inflator is inactive. In reality, the inflator may still fire another deployment.

    This is a smart system airbag, each model vehile has a computer/controller that is preset according to the OEMs recommendations for that make of vehicle.

    The airbag industry wants the automakers to fire off the airbags automatically. The main reason is to eliminate the transportation of a partially spent inflator, which now has to be shipped as a hazardous cargo.

    It also means that it will be safer for the responder, in that both the first and second stage will be automatically deployed. The recommended delay sequence would be from 50 - 150 ms. In other words in the blink of the eye two blasts of gases are delivered to both frontal airbags.

    There has been a myth about this, there are two inflators and two airbags, but not to the same side. One inflator with two pressure vessels for the driver and another dual action for the passenger side.

    One of the newest gases is hydrogen, this is a clean burn fuel, becareful of vehicle fires! Distance and stay safe...

    Ron



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    Ron Shaw
    http://www.extrication.com

    Comment


    • #3
      I think "5-10-20" is a good rule-of-thumb, but I am also concerned about the impact on patient care that this will have. Yes, we can provide a good measure of basic care by working from behind, but... there are limits here. I think where we have to start is by training more on where the airbags are located, and at the same time try and work with manufacturers to standardize the location, and operation of all SRS systems. Maybe the best way to start is to try and push for a universal way to completely disconnect airbag systems. This could come in the form of a special fuse/switch or some other model. This would be something universal in design and placement and would be required to totally and completely disable all SRS systems. I think that this would be the safest prospect for ALL rescuers. Will we have much luck in this regard? Who knows, but it just might be worth a try...

      Comment


      • #4
        EJR,

        One of the airbag manufactures has developed a concept that will do what you are asking. It offers a time delay to allow the SRS to deploy during a secondary crash, but eliminate the power to the SRS within a short time to allow responders to work with reduce risk of accidental deployment. I am not at liberty to explain any further details, after the device breaks in Japan we can let you in on the lastest development. For now you just have to be patient, light is at the end of the tunnel at least from one manufacturer of airbags.

        However, even if new vehicles use the device, you still have to remember that older vehicles will not have the device.

        While the rule of thumb of 5-10-20 is a good practic, it doesn't work for all airbags, and I am the one that developed it as a spin off from Ron Moore's original idea. Some airbags are now unique, larger, odd shaped, there is no one rule than can completely protect you or guard the responder from injury 100%. However the 5-10-20 Inch Rule will reduce the risk or severity of injury should there be an accidental deployment. Distancing is your best defence.

        While there are commerically available restraint devices, I do not recommend them. There are three strikes against using them; the airbag, automobile manufacturers and NHTSA-DOT a federal government agency all state do not restrain or cut any supplemental airbag system.

        You should remember, if there is an accidental airbag deployment and the device fails or steering wheel fails and there is an injury. It's the device that you installed, between the airbag and the patient, that caused the injury not the airbag. The devices are metal or soft fabric which have metal locking cams that may cause an injury.

        "Responder Fear" is prompting us to be willing to buy any product that will tell you that it will protect you durning an accidental depolyment of an airbag. Remember that the injury that device could inflict may be worse than that of the airbag it's self.

        Also, beware of the Dual Action Airbags, recently Dave Long MN told me of an accident deployment after a certified technician deployed a dual action system. When hot wiring a dual action system and not going through the controller, the second stage or first may not fire leaving the other stage active.

        For those of you that want a prop to show students, you may have a live inflator. DO NOT REMOVE ANY INFLATORS, you want a prop it's safest to purchase a inert system from the an airbag company.

        There is a shunting device to prevent static discharge in the connector when disconnecting wires, cutting the wires will by pass the shunting device. This feature was designed for the installers not for the would be prop hunters. Leave removing the inflators to the professionals. Even they can have mishaps such as the one Dave discribed to me.

        For over a year now, I have preached about the hazards of the dual action system, people are not listening. I would only attribute this to the fact that we all have learned that once an airbag has deployed it will not depoloy again. This is not true with a dual action airbag system.

        Dave Long has mentioned that GM stated that there are numerous accounts of simular accidents. Don't drop your guard because you see an already deployed airbag in the vehicle. Both driver and passenger frontals can have dual action airbags.

        Delay sequence for firing is determined by the car manufacturer not the airbag manufacturer. The airbag manufacturers are recommending that both stages fire within 50-150 ms of the first deployment. The order in which the stages fire are determined by the OEMs of the auto manufacturer and initiated by the controller (computer) for the SRS. According to one airbag manufacturer, in some situations the second stage may fire leaving the first stage active while others only the second stage. Again it is up to the individual computer to determine the firing sequence. This relates to the severity and if the occupant is wearing a seat belt or not.

        These are smart concept airbags, however remember if it's manmade, mechanical, electronic it's subject to Murphy's Law. And, as we all know, Murphy's Law is ever presence in the fire service. If you disagree, watch the Dayton Ohio Airbag Incident, it's an eye opener.

        EJR, it's nice to see someone supporting the concept and thinking beyond. Becareful out there!

        Ron


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        Ron Shaw
        http://www.extrication.com

        Comment


        • #5
          I have basically the same reply posted in another forum area, but after reading the replies here I have to ask the question again. Is there really a problem with SRS and SIP systems. For research purposes, does anyone know how many documented cases of accidental system deployments there have been during an emergency incident. The problem isn't with the major extrications, it with the minor injury incidents. These are the ones where you will be in close to the systems, packaging your patients. I agree with not using any of the "make safe" systems that are on the market. They are just a business way of making a buck off of us. But again I ask the question,"Is there a problem?"

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          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, but not all those that have researched and compiled the data are willing to share this information. Why, I don't know...

            I suggest you contact Bob Brown at Holmatro, Bob has data on aproximately 15 incidents.

            Bob Brown: [email protected]

            Dayton Ohio was the only one that has reach us, due in part to Ron Moore while at FETN.

            You may also contact Dave Long in MN, Dave works for North Memorial Health Care. Together with Mitch Becker of Abra Auto Body & Glass are compiling data for a future article on the subject.

            Dave Long: [email protected]

            Is there reason for concern, Yes. Should you delay patient care because of active airbags, No. Would I try to restrain or use an airbag restraint device, positivily NOT! Should I cut into an airbag or inflator, positively NOT! DISTANCE yourself for the airbag is your best way to reduce the risk of injury.

            You are absolutely correct in saying that companines are making money on what I call "Responder Fear", proper SRS education can replace a lot of this fear.

            Regards,
            Ron Shaw

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            Ron Shaw http://www.extrication.com


            [This message has been edited by Ron Shaw (edited 11-30-2000).]

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