Live bodies during extrication training

[Guest Close skip rupert61]

If you have read the door removal thread, I mentioned, and Todd followed up on the statement about being inside a car during an extrication. Todd mentioned their department has the nugs (new guys/gals) sit insiden during a training exercise. Gives them a real appreciation of what happens to the patients during an extrication. That made me think of another question and thought I would throw it out for discussion.
What are the feelings of using live bodies during extrication training/practice? I cant seem to find it, but I think Ron did an article on this a while back talking about the liability thing and is it worth it? What is the general feeling of the rescue community? I think it provides an understanding to the nugs that nobody can describe. Of course, put them in full gear to include eye protection.

Skip Rupert
[email protected]

[Guest Close NVFD933]

WE DO PUT OUR NEW GUYS IN THE CAR FOR TRAINING, BUT WE ALSO USE A DUMMY.
THE TRAINING STARTS BY DOING GLASS REMOVAL, THEN WE WILL PLACE A DUMMY(STUFFED, NOT A NEW GUY)IN THE DRIVERS SEAT AND WE WILL HAVE THE NEWBEE'S PROVIDE BLS FROM THE PASSENGER SIDE, WHILE WE PROCEED TO CUT THE CAR APART THIS WILL GIVE YOU A BUFFER BETWEEN YOUR NEWBEE AND THE RESCUE TOOL. THEY STILL GET TO HEAR, FEEL, AND SEE WHAT IS GOING ON BUT THEY ARE NOT IN DANGER OF BEING HIT BY A SUDDEN MOVEMENT OF THE TOOL OR A PEICE OF THE CAR. IF WE ARE TRAINING ON DASH ROLLS OR SOME THING THAT WILL REQUIRE US TO CUT BOTH SIDES OF THE CAR WE WILL PLACE THE NEWBEE IN THE REAR SEAT TO PROVIDE BLS. I AM ALL FOR LIVE BODIES DURING TRAINING IF YOUR NEW GUYS GET TO HEAR,FEEL, AND SEE WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN PRIER TO ARRIVING ON SCENE THEY WILL BE MORE PREPARED TO THINK OF THE PATIENT WHEN THEY WALK TOWARD A CAR WITH A RESCUE TOOL IN HAND.

[This message has been edited by NVFD933 (edited September 04, 1999).]

[Guest Close firetoad]

As Skip mentioned above, I have already made a quick snip about this in another thread. However, I wanted to reiterate my ideas. We have done this type of training with the new people for some time now. It was going on when I was a probie, and is still going on. I would like to note, that the probies are extricated by the more experienced firefighters. That way, as mentioned above, any problems/liability is minimized. I agree, that there is some risk involved in this, but there is no better way for the firefighters to appreciate what is actually happening to a pt during extricattion. This is generally the last exercise in the extrication classes. The guys/gals really come out with a new appreciation for pt consideration during an extrication.
I liked the idea when I was a probie and still like it.
Another way to gain this appreciation is hanging through a window and stabilizing C-spine, etc. during a real extrication with everything being cut off around you(which I have done ). However, probies can't do the real thing. So, we must resort to the means mentioned above.


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Todd Metzger
[email protected]
RRFD, 422
Specialist/Engineer/Mentor

[Guest Close DD]

We usually kill them before putting them into the vehicle. That way they don't freak out when the snakes start crawling over them. Seriously now, during warm weather, snakes seem to like to get into cars in the junk yards. They don't like us making a lot of noise and cutting up their homes. Looking for the snakes doesn't work. They crawl into places where they can't be seen. Other critters like junk cars also, use caution!

[Guest Close NVFD933]

DD dont go to the junk yard wait until the next city council meeting go to the court house and take your pick. lol (just being funny)


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NVFD933
[email protected]

[Guest Close e33]

Bad idea, lots of potential dangers...don't make it standard practice.

[Guest Close skip rupert61]

e33, I understand the potential dangers with putting someone inside a vehicle during training, however, let me ask one question. If we can not control the dangers during a training exercise, how do we control the dangers during a live extrication with real patients and EMS people inside? My skool of thought is we work like we play. Take the effort of making things safe during playtime, then making them safe during worktime is easy.
Skip

[Guest Close NVFD933]

well said skip

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NVFD933
[email protected]

[Guest Close KATN61]

Yeah I know I am kinda late on a response but here goes it. We used to put our "newbies" in the vehicles while we trained, but, we no longer use this practice and here is why.We once had a brand of rescue tool named XXXXXXXXX <---- the name is kinda like a mythical thing that rises from the ashes. We have had the cutter on this noname tool for awhile, having done several trainings and extrications with it.Well at one training, with a "newbie" inside, we were cutting the A post and whammo, one blade snapped off. It just missed the "newbie" and stuck in the headrest of his seat. That is why we stopped using live people in vehicles and , having this being the 4th problem with this manufacturers HRT, we bought a different brand call ed AMKUS and we are much happier now.

[Guest Close e33]

We as training professionals should know that use of live victims in trainiung situations is not a smart idea. Let me ask you..would you use a firefighter as a victim in a live fire training exercise? Would you use a live victim in a confined space simulation? Would you use a live victim in a trench rescue drill? NO is the answer to all three of these instances. Why? would you ask..its very simple...we cannot control the unknown variables in training instances..as we cannot control the variables in real life. It should be expected that we be safe in all that we do..this means not opening ourselves up for injury. Use dummies for training..be smart. If a cutter blade breaks..which we never know..it wont injure a dummy..it could kill a person..PPE or No PPE, all confined spaces should be treated as such...trenches should be approached with caution..live fire should be handled VERY carefully with as many safety precautions in place as possible. Why do we hear that rescuers die in training and are injured all the time..explain that to me folks...please convince me otherwise! Did the guy who dies falling 3 stories duting bailout training have to die? NO..did he have a belay (safety line)..dont think so. So if we practiced like it was real life..we should do bailouts from 3rd floor windows with no safety lines...RIGHT? NO. What else can I say? Work hard..Practice alot, train safely and smart. **** HAPPENS.

[Guest Close Ron Shaw]

I have to agree strongly with those that would not use live patients during an extrication drills.

Twenty years ago I was one of those patients in my EMT-A class. I will never do it again or allow it done in one of my classes. If you want realism go to a crash or get a crash dummy.

Don't take the chance of getting someone hurt, especially when there are alternatives.



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Ron Shaw
http://www.extrication.com

[lutan1 FIGJAM Find all posts View Profile Close lutan1]

Do recent events change anyone's thoughts?

In light of the recent prosecutions bought against fire dept personnel with regards to injuries and fatalities during hot fire training exercises, does this change anyone's opinion of live vs dummy patients in extrication training?

[Bones42 Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bones42]

No. We train the same way we used to, safely as we can. Patients in the vehicles are dummies. We do, however, put live rescue personnell in the vehicle as we do at actual scenes. They are wearing their full protective gear just like at an actual scene. Only differences being we take things slower and have extra sets of eyes watching for hazards and more dialog.

[MalahatTwo7 MembersZone Subscriber Find all posts View Profile Close MalahatTwo7]

Bones describes our training protocol on extrication pretty good, and we aren't even from the same general region.

We don't do it often, but we do occasionally use live persons in our scenarios. These are mostly unit memebers, but we have used the children of members as well. In all cases, the occupants are dressed in full turnouts, including a helmet (Hockey type) and gloves/boots. AND it is all done in slow time. The point is to practice doing the job correctly and to develop good technique.

All scenarios are of a basic nature, vehicles are on their wheels and none are "stacked" over the other.

For the really fun stuff, we use hose dummy's. One is approx 125lbs, the other is close to 185 or 190lbs. Ya ever try to do spinal on something that has a neck that's 24 inches long? It gets fun some times. One good thing about that though is the "head" weighs about the same or maybe a little more than a real person.

[RyanEMVFD Forum Member Find all posts View Profile Close RyanEMVFD]

we'll use live people during training of removing patients from vehicles, but when it comes to cutting up a vehicle we'll use dummys then.

just on a side note, if you use live victims, make sure the women have shirts tucked in.