Support the door or not?

[LCFD77]

Great information here. What a tool! Anyway, the way I learned in class and used at my "former" Dept. was that when spreading a door, a FF would rest in butt on the door with his knees flexed a little so that when the door actually was popped it would not fly around.

Jump ahead to my new FD and we have to pop a door. Someone says "Hey, watch out for the door, we are spreading" I make a suggestion to lean on it and the person in charge says No way! You'll get hurt. There is no way that you can stop that thing anyway. Well, from my previous experience of actually doing it it seemed to work just fine.

Does anyone else practice this technique? Anything bad ever happen? Is it a no-no?

Thanks in advance and stay safe.

[Bones42]

Never saw a door that needed to be popped actually fly around. Isn't putting your butt against it contradicting (although very slightly) what you are trying to do? We had some people in my Squad that would do the same thing. They learned that when they had their last extrication training....back in 1980. I like to keep people out of harms way. If the door should happen to fly open...so what. Keep everyone out of it's path and let it go. I would guess that it would not come flying back and reclose itself, but again, never saw it happen so I can't say.

We do not have someone put any pressure against the door when popping it.

[jducharme]

Thats also called "Butting the door". Old school just like hitting the roof with an ax to make a crease to assist with flapping the roof. Its not advised any more. Think about it, a hyd. spreader puts out up to 30,000 lbs of force during a spread. That engery can be transmitted to the firefighter. Not good

[Resq14]

I have seen pieces fly, both from cars and HRT's. Doors can give-way with enough sudden energy to injure someone trying to "help." This is a quick and easy way to get hurt.

So what if the door pops or drops to the ground? If the vehicle is stabilized, it does not matter. Agree with Bones.

"Typically," though, the door does not pop more than a few inches. So you can get away with "helping" by butting the door, and probably never experience a problem. That one time it decides to spring open a couple feet... look out.

Like was already said, you vs. thousands of PSI... the human loses every time. I'd highly discourage this stuff. It's kinda like watching new people with the tools, fighting them, prying with them, expending their energy to move metal, etc. You can tell because they're the ones sweating and breathing hard and swearing. It's amusing to me because when the tool is in operation, they don't understand that they just let the tool do the work. Once it "bites," all it takes is one hand to operate the open/close, and perhaps the other hand on a handle to catch the tool if it releases from the metal.

So anyway, some things are best left in the 80's, like Cyndi Lauper, big hair, and "butting doors." Just my thoughts on the subject.

[BrooklynFire]

I've always found when popping a door if you pop the hinged side first the nader bolt keeps the door from flying out. Once the hinged side is freed all that's holding it is the nader bolt, a simple little pop with the spreaders and the door is off. Whenever I'm taking off a door I always leave the nader bolt until last as the nader will hold the door in place so your butt doesn't have to.

[Resq14]

I agree. But even if it does fly out, what is the big deal if you have the vehicle stabilized, and you and all bystanders are clear of the door?

[Zmagrescue]

Here's really a new thought. Lets forget the old ways with the old tools and "cut" rather then "force" "pop" and "spread". There are some fantastic cutters available now. Hinges and naders are no match for the new breed of cutters. Very controlled, very smooth, very "non-shocking" to the car and occupants. I love it when the first guys grab the combi or the spreader, that leaves the cutter for me.

Zmag

[Resq14]

The newer generation of cutters are more capable than their predecessors. I still find, however, that I can remove the "typical" crushed door with my big spreaders to gain access much faster and more effectively than with cutters.

Now I'm not saying we don't use cutters. We just don't run to them to open doors in an "average" collision. This is because it's entirely possibly that even with 3+ cuts on the door you will still have a door that is jammed by metal impinging on the door frame. I've seen this happen quite a bit, and the crew must then resort to a spreader to get the door off. Granted, the cutters have already done most of the work by this time. I just find that with a big pair of spreaders, you can take a door in minimal time... usually seconds.

[lutan1]

I'm definitely an advocate for bumming doors.

Those that claim to be able to spread with a clear path around the door must have an amazing control over the scene to ensure that no-one finds themselves in the doors path if it were to fly.

In 12 years experience, I've never seen a door being bummed that could not be controlled. On the other hand, I've seen some uncontrolled doors fly open a great rate of knots, where if a person was in its projectile path versus controlling it in the first place, it would have done some nasty injury...

Lets forget the old ways with the old tools and "cut" rather then "force" "pop" and "spread".

All for this- having now done numerous rescues with the Holmatro 3000 series, I can vouch for cutting versus spreading!

[kevinw]

Can't we all just get along?

Preventing something from flying seems to be a good idea to me, let's just use something other than our body. I use my hose strap wrapped around the window frame of the car door and the post nearest where my crew member is spreading, works for either a latch or hinge attack on the door. A quick girth hitch or simple bight around the frame and post and you can keep things tight and controlled as well as let out slack as the door is spread away from the vehicle.

Here's a photo if that wasn't clear of the strapping technique (our spreader hose failed at beginning of the job so we operated a hi-lift jack in the window opening, held open the opening we got above the door latch with a wedge and cut the nader pin with the recip saw. The strap was still in place from the jacking operation)

[Resq14]

Interesting points.

Originally posted by lutan1

Those that claim to be able to spread with a clear path around the door must have an amazing control over the scene to ensure that no-one finds themselves in the doors path if it were to fly.

We do. It's the tool operator's responsibility to prevent this from happening, and most everyone knows this on scene anyway.

In 12 years experience, I've never seen a door being bummed that could not be controlled. On the other hand, I've seen some uncontrolled doors fly open a great rate of knots, where if a person was in its projectile path versus controlling it in the first place, it would have done some nasty injury...

You're killing me here! If a person can control it with his meager 180ish pound body, how is it that they could then be injured if they were in its path when it did kick out? Either it's dangerous or it's not. The door doesn't accelerate... it's imparted with the same amount of force regardless of whether you're leaning on it or standing 2 feet away from it.

I've seen straps, ropes, bodies... all kinds of things used to control the door in the "typical" door evolution when spreading. I say get comfortable knowing what your tool is doing to the car and what the reaction will be when you use the tool. I think you'll find that even if it does swing out, it's no big deal. We haven't done this for years, and we have NEVER had a problem. I HAVE seen people tossed about from seemingly minor "pops" of doors. Not smart IMHO.

[Bones42]

Last year, we finally got a new cutter to go along with our old one (from late 70's). We now have the ability to cut naders and hinges, something new for us. We typically pop a door first, then if the door needs/warrants complete removal, we cut. The popping first takes care of any metal impinging, the cut removes the door more controllably.

We're doing a drill tonight on an old 4 door. I will not butt the door (which we don't do anyway) and try to come back with results on how far/much any of the 4 doors "fly".


KevinW - it might just be a second in time, but looking at your picture, if that door pops with enough force to injure, it will yank that strap right out of that hand.

[NB87JW]

Butting But's

I love this topic LCFD77 started. But butting doors is something we use to do 20 years ago. Granted it still will work MOST of the time. BUT, not all the time. Anyone with any street time can appreciate the saying "never say never, and never say always". I use it frequently in teaching extrication. I too use to BUTT doors, BUT I don't do it any more, nor do I allow those at an extrication evolution (training or on the streets)to do it either. There are safer ways of allowing the release of this dynamic energy. I do teach the Method Kevin illustrated in his post above as one method.
Of course one of the safest is to keep all clear of the door. (as mentioned before) I have been pushed out from a door just hard enough to not want to do it again (that's why I stopped)or let others get in front of that force. It's just Not NECESSARY. So, whatever it's worth to ya.... Watch your BUTTS.

Fraternally, Jordan

[lutan1]

We do. It's the tool operator's responsibility to prevent this from happening, and most everyone knows this on scene anyway.

Good on ya' Resq14 for having that sort of control in your area- in ours, it's near impossible with absolutely little or no (big catch word of the month coming...) interoperability.

Very hard to control other services at the best of times who are determined to do their job, and no one is going to tell them otherwise!

If a person can control it with his meager 180ish pound body, how is it that they could then be injured if they were in its path when it did kick out? Either it's dangerous or it's not. The door doesn't accelerate... it's imparted with the same amount of force regardless of whether you're leaning on it or standing 2 feet away from it.

You're missing what I'm saying- if you are against it, you can absorb or control some of the force. If you're two feet away from it and get struck with it, it's gonna' hurt a hell of a lot more!

In 12 years experience, I've never seen a door being bummed that could not be controlled.

Resq14, that's my experience, you may have had different, and so be it... I've taught both techniques and have personally have no major issue with either. As I also went onto say, I'm a huge advocate now for cutting versus spreading anyway.

[Bones42]

Ok, so we popped 3 of the 4 doors, cut the 4th. Farthest a door flew open was about 6 inches. Granted, this was on an undamaged car, so that may change the results a little bit? The biggest piece of "flying" car parts was the nader bolt on the rear passenger door, as I cut that, it flew back into my arm (glad I was wearing full gear - even though it was 85F).

Stay Safe