2 or 1 Rescuer for High Angle.

[WBenner]

I'm looking to see who uses what method. The 2 man rescue team over the wall or the 1 man rescuer over the wall on a Low or High Angle rescue Pick off. No Basket

I perfer the 2 man rescue theory.For many reason. The biggest reason is that you have 2 rescuers who can help each other out. Doesn't matter how good you are just having another partner there to assist if needed will take alot of stress off the primary rescuer.
So let us know which one you prefer and why..Lets not make this a battle ground.

NOTE: I havent been able to find anything in NFPA to state which one is prefered.

[Riversong]

I perfer the 2 man rescue theory.For many reason. The biggest reason is that you have 2 rescuers who can help each other out.

NOTE: I havent been able to find anything in NFPA to state which one is prefered.

NFPA doesn't mandate (or recommend) rescue techniques, only manufacturer's standards and rescuer proficiency levels.

You state that you have "many reasons", but mention only one. I'd be interested in knowing what your other reasons are.

The primary purpose of the pick-off is to execute a quick and efficient patient removal from a danger zone with minimal manpower and equipment. This can often be accomplished by the Hasty Team before the rest of the crew arrives with all the gear.

A single rescuer pick-off is far more likely to meet all three goals - quick, efficient, and simple - than a two rescuer pickoff.

I can imagine almost no condition in which it would be advantageous to employ two rescuers for a simple pick-off. This requires setting up (particularly if your team requires belays) as many anchors and ropes as a full litter evacuation.

- Robert

[WBenner]

Just Asking a ?

Riversong,
Your right about NFPA, I know it purpose but their is always someone out there that will state NFPA when in fact is does not. I just worded it wrong.
When we send 2 rescuers over the wall etc. They are not attached to a belay line they are teatherd together.1 rescuer is the primary rescuer and does all the work while the 2nd rescuer is simply a backup. The anchor system is not all that much bigger. Do you ever send 2 rescuers? Im far from a Rope Rescue GURU. This is why I asked 1 or 2.... Does your City have a technical Rescue Team? And if so how many on Shift at a time. I simply like the 2 man rescue. We use a 2 man team method for 90% of the fire service so why not rope. Im not saying its better,quicker I just happen to like it. I just want to see what other Dept's use. You state a Hasty Team what level are they trained too?

[Riversong]

When we send 2 rescuers over the wall etc. They are not attached to a belay line they are teatherd together.1 rescuer is the primary rescuer and does all the work while the 2nd rescuer is simply a backup.

This can be a real danger. If I were going to send two people rappeling over the edge, they would never be tethered together. If rescuer A is performing the pickoff (two man load) and rescuer B loses control, then rescuer A suddenly has a three-person load on his descender. And, if it's a rescue-8 as is common in the fire service, then it will not have enough friction to control a 3-person load. Now you've turned one possible casualty into three.

We use a 2 man team method for 90% of the fire service so why not rope.

On a fireground, it's a different story. If something goes bad, you need a backup to immediately remove the victim. On rope, you always want the minimum number of people to do the job, with the rest of the team managing the ropes, comms, logistics, etc.

You state a Hasty Team what level are they trained too?

I'm talking about wilderness search and rescue, in which a medically-trained hasty team of at least three is sent in light and fast to locate, access, and stabilize the victim, and possibly extricating them if no more help is needed.

Typically a larger (and slower) rescue team goes in soon behind the Hasty Team to bring additional gear and personnel, and to assist with the rescue and/or evacuation.

- Robert

[resqtek]

JAFA, my department used to use what sounds like the same system. Winnepeg and Regina used the same one as well. The second person on rope is not neccesary and the risk of a three person load on a single system is huge. There is also an extreme risk of injury to the rescuer in the swing fall resulting from the arrest with the tether. Also, you need to be careful how the conection to the tether is made. It is most likely the system with the two person load will be the one to fail. If this happens, how will that load be applied to the secondary system? A lot of rescuers will attach the tether directly to their harness. This would mean the two person load will be impacting your harness.

NFPA has clear language about the requirements of a belay system. One requirement is that risk of injury to the rescuer and or patient is minimized. It also states that a belay system should not be loaded until it is actuated. That system does not meet these requirements. I was finally able to convince them that what they had was the illusion of safety. A second rescuer and bigger rope and systems does not always result in a safer operation. A difficult concept for firefighters to grasp a the best of times. We now use a smaller, lighter weight, and more versatile system.

FYI, I have a video of the system being drop tested. Rescue Randy died a couple deaths that day due to the system's lack of ability to catch a 3 person load.

[Ack8236]

We would send one person to do a pick-off. I would never risk putting a 3 person load on one system and we do not have the personnel resources to man another system for a two-man rescue team. As Riversong stated; quick, efficient, simple.

[tecrsq]

One man over the wall has been our strategy and he has an appropriate belay on a seperate system.

Dont forget the belay and keep the rescue load to 2 persons for the 2 person rope.

3 person load on the rope is just setting yourself up as a future case study.

Read about the case studies and apply your training and safety practices to prevent to possibility of becoming one!

[jmatthe2]

This is the second time I have seen someone in Canada refer to a "tethered" 2-nd rescuer. I just can't mentally picture what the heck you guys are talking about. Anywhere I can see some pics?

I agree that using two rescuers may make things slightly easier on the rescue side, but on the flip-side would significantly complicate things from a rigging and system managment standpoint. I just can't see the practicality of sending two guys over.

Low-Angle, in my opion, is a different story for obvious reasons. People have to carry the basket, and it may take more than one person to treat and package the victim.

[Riversong]

This is the second time I have seen someone in Canada refer to a "tethered" 2-nd rescuer. I just can't mentally picture what the heck you guys are talking about. Anywhere I can see some pics?

I've used this technique for teaching rappelling recreationally. Rather than use a separate top belay for a novice reppeller, I anchor the middle of the rope and rappel alongside the student to coach him/her through it and use a short (3') sling to connect our harnesses as a safety for the student.

But for qualified rescue techs, there is no reason to use this system. And, as several have noted, for pickoffs it's downright dangerous. Not because there's a possibility of placing a three-person load on a single rope (this is commonly done with a litter rescue with two attendants), but rather because of placing a three-person load on a one-person descender (with some shock loading).

- Robert

[WBenner]

Gentlemen,
You all make great points and I will take them into considerations.
Let me explain some things first. The rescuers are using Rappel Racks not
Fig(8). I understand where your all coming from. Safety is a must but how many case studies show a rope breaking. The rescuers tie off before they pick-off. The rescuers are only 5ft apart. resqtek Im sure you do have a video and I would love to see it but Im sure something was compermized in order for the results. Guys Im not saying Im right your wrong. You may have been doing rope for over 20yrs.The fact is Ive never seen or heard of perfectly fine equipment failing. Equipment has failed due to human error. But is it the equipment or rope? I have seen no studies that say so.
I will find some photos and show you what I mean. Dont get your feathers up I hear you all and taken it into account. But what are the Facts on this. If you are simply going by what you were taught or your beliefs show me facts.
LET ME FIND SOME PICTURES.DONT BE A HATER....This is why I started the thread.

[WBenner]

Picture

I got a picture but I will email it if u want to see it.
so let the email addresses begin

[Riversong]

how many case studies show a rope breaking.

Who's talking about a rope breaking? The issue is one of the rescuers losing control for whatever reason: human error, rockfall, victim going ballistic.

Ive never seen or heard of perfectly fine equipment failing. Equipment has failed due to human error. But is it the equipment or rope? I have seen no studies that say so.

"Perfectly fine equipment", assuming its the proper equipment, doesn't fail sitting on the shelf. But in use there are any number of possible failure modes. There was a case of a rock climber fatality in Minnessota due, apparently, to grit getting drawn into a Grigri which severed the rope.

The local rescue squad here in Vermont severed a brand new 1/2" rope during vertical training and permanently damaged a new ascender (which is what cut the rope) which had been used (improperly, in my mind) as a progress capture device on the mainline.

The rescuers tie off before they pick-off. The rescuers are only 5ft apart.

Tying off is standard safety procedure. But, if the either rescuer loses control on descent, particularly the one with the two-person load, then you've got a potential 5' fall (tether length) and shock loading onto the other system - and particularly on the other descender.

Are both rescuers on 1/2" (13mm) general use ropes? If one is on a 7/16" (11mm) rope and suddenly takes the 3-person load, then that rope is severely overloaded and, at a minimum, will stretch considerably - and the stetching on a rock face can result in rope shearing on an edge.

But what are the Facts on this.

This isn't about "facts", just common sense. If you can't understand that having two rescuers tethered together can result in a sudden 3-person load on one of the rope systems (anchor, edge protection, descender, and likely the rescuer's harness if that's where the tether is attached), and that such a possibility can be catastrophic, then you need some additional training.

- Robert

[jmatthe2]

JAFA62,

email me at [email protected]

Thanks!

Jeff

[Riversong]

If you have two rescuers and two ropes to perform a pickoff, there are a couple of safer and more effective alternatives to two rescuers rappelling over the edge tethered together.

1) Rescuer A rappels for the pickoff, with rescuer B belaying rescuer A (and the two-person load after pickoff) with the second rope. This affords a proper rescue backup without the complication of having two rescuers over the edge.

2) Rescuer B lowers rescuer A to the victim for pickoff, converts to short raise (with a jigger, for instance) to help unload the patient from his rope, dc's the haul and continues lower. This way the pickoff rescuer only has to deal with the patient and not the rappel.

- Robert

[WBenner]

Ok Ok I Got It> You Dont Like 2 Man

Riversong do you have an email address and I will send u a picture of what I mean. Im not disagreeing with you at all. Im just saying that this is one of the methods I have learned. And I happened to have liked it.
High Angle has so many differnet setups. This is just one of many.
I use a 6-bar rack where as you might use a Fig 8.
You gave your point and I GOT IT.