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  • #16
    N2DFire

    You have some great ideas. I am not an expert at all, but I have been trained by some very good people. I don't know if I would have thought about all the suggestions that you have made.

    I am very glad to be able to read in these forums and learn something new.

    I whole heartedly agree that before you try any rope system, that you must be trained. Training does not come with taking a 1 week class. Training comes with practice, at least that is what I tell my team. I also tell them, until someone proves to you that they know a rope system, talk to them like they dont know what it is. Your life may depend on it, or more importantly, my life may depend on it!

    Anthony

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Riversong View Post
      Can I point out that this is NOT a public citizen forum, but a FF forum and, in particular, a specialized rescue section?

      Do you mind not being so condescending as to assume that those of us discussing this issue are either unaware of the risks or untrained in the proper techniques?

      - Robert
      Robert,
      First - contrary to your belief - this IS a public forum accessible by anyone world wide with an internet connection and the desire to read it. It just happens to have all of it's subject matter geared toward Fire, EMS, and related disciplines. There is no system of checking credentials at sign-up to validate if a user is in fact a public safety professional or a member of John Q. Public. As a matter of fact it's not even a requirement to create an account to simply read these forums. One must only register if they desire to actually post something.

      Additionally - once registered there is no method of blocking anyone who may not be trained "in the proper techniques" from entering the Specialized Rescue section so then any new eager Jr FF or Explorer (or other John Q. Citizen for that matter) could very well come in here and read what we post & discuss and decide to try it out on their own.

      Therefore I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to Assume that every single person reading this discussion board is certified and trained in the afore mentioned specialized rescue disciplines and as such recognizes the dangers inherent in performing some of these techniques.


      Secondly I see nothing whatsoever in my post that was condescending.

      Main Entry: con·de·scend
      Pronunciation: "kän-di-'send
      Function: intransitive verb
      Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French condescendre, from Late Latin condescendere, from Latin com- + descendere to descend
      1 a : to descend to a less formal or dignified level : UNBEND b : to waive the privileges of rank
      2 : to assume an air of superiority
      Source: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary


      Nope - I was never undignified nor at any time did I assume an air of superiority. Matter of fact I acknowledged that I was no expert at the beginning of my post.
      Also in the part you quoted - my comment "an unknown level of expertise" was meant to be read as I don't know what experience level that you (the reader) may have. I sure you would agree that it would be in poor form to recommend that someone with no training or experience whatsoever run right out and begin using haul systems.

      I have seen several agencies see an area of need such as this, go out and purchase equipment, and slap it on the truck without so much as reading the literature that came with the product - let alone getting any professional training. If you think for one second that this wouldn't happen then you are kidding yourself.

      My sole thoughts & intention with my repeated warning was to stress the fact that this type of activity is best left up to competent & trained persons and should not be undertaken without training.
      If that warning saved one person from doing a "dumb thing" and getting themselves or someone else hurt then I have served my purpose. If in doing so I came across to you as condescending then so be it. As I have always said in my career I'd much rather someone go on living & be ****ed off at me than to be injured or killed because I didn't say or do something.

      And good sir - while we are on the subject of condescending - I highly suggest that you review some of your own post in the 2 or 1 Rescuer for High Angle. thread. With out the benefit of tone and inflection present in the spoken work - it would be quite easy for someone reading some of your comments there to reach the same (incorrect) conclusion that you did about me.
      Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
      Stephen
      FF/Paramedic
      Instructor

      Comment


      • #18
        Hello all...this sounds like a good topic. As long as our unfriendly "expert" stops bashing every one with his "quoting" "Bolding" and "bashing" tactics.

        Riversong...Please be nice.

        The cautions stated prior by some of the others on this forum should be heeded. I have another caution..."Do not asume" that if the tree can support one person (the hunter) that it can support another (the Rescuer).

        Prior to working in the Fire/Rescue business I worked for a very large tree cutting service. I was a foreman for a team that cleared the large strips over mountains for the large power lines. We responded to a crew that had a "tree climbing incident". A climber fell and was injured and stuck. A second climber climbed and did an "Overhead Anchor" and was about to assit the first climber and the tree broke and killed both climbers. The death was not due to the climbers falling but was due to the broken part of the tree falling and hitting the two climbers. It was determined that there was a rotten/dead spot in the tree that was unseen from the outside.

        The "Overhead Anchor" is a very good idea but much caution and knowledge must be used. We use the "overhead Anchor" all the time in "Tower" and "Structural/Industrial" high angle rescue. Remember your "Critical Angles" and your "Change of Direction" rules and how they appy to "Load Amplification". If you place an anchor on the tree above the pt with a "COD" of 0 degrees you double whatever weight that you apply to the anchor point...the tree. That makes your 200 lbs rescuer into a 400 lbs load and so on.

        Some one mentioned ladders. In some situations laddering the tree would be the safest thing. Also two ladders of the same size work great. Build an "A" frame with the two ladders. NOTE: At this time I do not have the time and/or interest to type out the instructions for building a safe "A" frame but I will state that you should NOT build one with out propper training...You need to know what you are doing. You can also raise a ladder perpendicular to the tree that is supported by ropes (Church raise) and climb to the victim. A little giant ladder would be great also.

        If you have a "Sky-hook" in your truck you may want to use it. Make sure that you check the rating on it first.

        Take care people and be safe...
        MEDIC-0372

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by MEDIC0372 View Post
          Hello all...this sounds like a good topic. As long as our unfriendly "expert" stops bashing every one with his "quoting" "Bolding" and "bashing" tactics.

          Riversong...Please be nice.
          Are you trolling these threads just to stick it to me? You are the only one on this thread who has attacked an individual poster, using name-calling and patently false accusations.

          You suggest that "quoting" which the forum is designed to do and which almost everyone does, and "bolding" which is also a common and perfectly appropirate practice since it is the only way - without voice inflection - that one can emphasize a point - are somehow insulting.

          And you'll notice that my very polite request for another poster to avoid condescension had half as many "bolds" (only one) as did the person's words I quoted.

          So "be nice"? I'd suggest you take your own advice, stop the bashing and stick to the subject so that we might all learn from each other.

          If you place an anchor on the tree above the pt with a "COD" of 0 degrees you double whatever weight that you apply to the anchor point...the tree. That makes your 200 lbs rescuer into a 400 lbs load and so on.
          And, by the way, you're referring to a 180 degree change of direction (from straight up to straight down). If it were 0 degrees, there would be no change of direction.

          - Robert
          aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
          To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

          Comment


          • #20
            Riversong...I am not trolling these threads to stick it to you. I am sorry if it appears that way. There are many good threads in this forum and you have contributed well to them. You have some very good points and I for one, like reading them. But...there are threads that some people mess up by saying negative things to and about other people and their knowledge and tactics. I am not going to post examples but I am sure that if you read back over many of the threads in this forum you can find examples of peoples comments that tend to put a damper on the thread. As I said...I am sorry and I am not targeting you. If I am ever in your area I will buy you a Beer.

            In regards to the "COD" of 0 degrees doubling the load on the anchor...When I speak of the 0 degree angle I am speaking of the inside angle. The angle the rope makes when it leaves the pulley. That is the "critical" angle that I am speaking of. You could call it a 360 degree angle if you want but that would be describing the outside angle not the critical anlgle. Most books and schools describe the critical angle as the "interior angle" that is formed by the rope and/or webbing.

            I wish that I could draw a picture to explain but I can't. But if you draw a straight line across the bottom of a paper and draw a circle, on top of the line, but touching it in the middle of the line...I will explain. What you now have in front of you is a rope with a pulley in the middle of it with no change of direction. Now... draw a line straight up from the pulley (the circle) at a 90 degree angle. You now have an interior angle of 90 degrees. That angle will increase your load on the anchor by approx. 1.41 times the load being raised. Now...draw a line straight back to form an 0 degree angle. That will then create a force on the anchor of approx. 2 times that of the load being raised.

            Also you can draw a large circle on your paper and draw three lines (make three equal pie shapes) inside the circle. Now what you have is three equal angles of 120 degrees. At 120 degrees all forces applied are equal...so if you have an anchor system and/or an change of direction (pulley) and your load on one end was 100 lbs you would then have 100 lbs and each of the other two ends. If you bring two of the lines closer together (decrease the interior angle) you increase the load/force on the other line (or the terminal end of that line...we call it the anchor or the load). If you move two of the lines away from each other you decrease the load/force on the third line.

            These interior angles are what we call the "Critical Angles". On "CODs" we want to keep the interior angle larger to help decrease the load on the anchor system (the anchor system for the pulley). The opposite applies to the interior angle that is formed when we make an anchor system. It should be kept as small as posible to decrease the load on the anchor system itself.

            Sounds confusing I know.

            Also...I do know that some of you already know this stuff and if you do fine. It was intended for those that do not know.
            Last edited by MEDIC0372; 02-16-2007, 08:56 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MEDIC0372 View Post
              Sounds confusing I know.
              Only if you make it confusing.

              In regards to the "COD" of 0 degrees doubling the load on the anchor...When I speak of the 0 degree angle I am speaking of the inside angle. The angle the rope makes when it leaves the pulley. That is the "critical" angle that I am speaking of.
              Except you didn't refer to either the "critical angle" nor the "inside angle". You spoke of the change of direction angle, which is a vector changing from up to down, or 180 degrees.

              If you refer to the interior angle formed by the rope as it enters and leaves the pulley, then the formula for the load on the pulley and its anchor is:

              2cos(angle/2)
              180o = 0 load
              150o = 0.5 x load
              120o = 1.0 x load
              90o = 1.4 x load
              45o = 1.8 x load
              0o = 2.0 x load

              These interior angles are what we call the "Critical Angles". On "CODs" we want to keep the interior angle larger to help decrease the load on the anchor system (the anchor system for the pulley).
              Actually, the rope angle on a COD (or CD) is determined by the terrain and which direction is most appropriate or safest for the haul line. Understanding how the necessary angle change will impact the load on the CD helps in building a sufficiently strong CD anchor (not using a small tree branch, for instance).

              The opposite applies to the interior angle that is formed when we make an anchor system. It should be kept as small as posible to decrease the load on the anchor system itself.
              You mean to minimize the load on the elements of the anchor system - such as the two strands of a basket-hitched sling around a wide pole, or the two or more independent anchors in a multi-point anchor system.

              anchor strand stress = 1/cos(angle/2) x ½
              30o = 0.52 x load
              60o = 0.58 x load
              90o = 0.71 x load
              120o = 1.00 x load
              150o = 1.93 x load
              160o = 2.88 x load
              170o = 5.74 x load
              175o = 11.5 x load
              176o = 14.3 x load
              177o = 19.1 x load
              178o = 28.6 x load
              179o = 57.3 x load

              A good rule of thumb is to keep the internal angles of a sling in the anchor system to within 90o, if possible, and to no more than 120o. If using a multi-point, load-sharing anchor because the individual anchor points are not "bomb-proof", then it is best to keep the angles in the sling system between anchor points to no more than 60o (0.58 load) and preferably around 30o (0.52 load).

              - Robert
              aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
              To Avert Disaster in the Vertical Environment

              Comment


              • #22
                Yep...sounds like you got it.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hmmm...........

                  I have been around a bit, and have worked some jobs involving people ensnared in some fashion in trees, building frameworks, bridges, etc. First and foremost, N2D is absolutely right, on two counts, as well as some others. Although Rope work, with the possible exception of Confined Space incidents, is not done in IDLH Atmospheres, it is one of the most dangerous parts of our job. Therefore - ADEQUATE TRAINING before going to work is paramount. Period. Second, That this is a forum where absolutely no Fire/Rescue credentials are needed, should be glaringly obvious to anyone who has been around for a while. One thing that I did, about thirty years ago, was to help hump a 3 section 35ft ladder about a mile to set up a overhead haul system to Rescue a guy who got caught in a tree while gathering Mistletoe. THAT was a fun outing....... People do get themselves into some weird situations, or get put there by others. Last night, I ran a call to a nearby Amusement Park where a Roller Coaster car got stuck. Our S.O.P. is to provide a Standby Crew and let the Park Maintenence people do their thing. This works well, but the potential is always there, that we'll have to bring people down with our tactics and gear. Train, Train, Train, You never know........
                  Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
                  In memory of
                  Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
                  Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

                  IACOJ Budget Analyst

                  I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

                  www.gdvfd18.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Don't forget the basics. If we can get above the PT, a simple cench around the main tree trunk a few feet above the PT, lock in a single pulley COD, down to the ground at an angle of say 45deg to anchor and second COD, you have instant 2:1 lowering system. A couple of guys could use to pick PT up to unload the feet, cut away and lower.

                    By the way, great page, I am new to the site, but not new to the industry. You will never here me say I know all either.


                    Semper Fi

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