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training question

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  • training question

    Does anyone here actually train on rope to be able to operate alone without the need for team support? Or are we all just putting all our eggs in the "team" basket?

  • #2
    Are there circumstances under which you would realistically be expected or needed to operate alone?

    Comment


    • #3
      Absolutely. But even if you think you never would why would you not train to? Doesn't seem to make any common scense. It always amazes me that rescue training depends so heavy on team everything with rope. Yet. Most of the time you are over an edge and out of view of the team. I would think you would want to control in the least your vertical movement. I know I fall back on this all the time as an example but like I have said before you can't prove me wrong really. How will you team raise and move and lower in a tree rescue? That is the most common at height work job being preformed each day across the world. And saying you will just call for another tree company just doesn't cut it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Fairfield View Post
        Absolutely. But even if you think you never would why would you not train to? Doesn't seem to make any common scense. It always amazes me that rescue training depends so heavy on team everything with rope. Yet. Most of the time you are over an edge and out of view of the team. I would think you would want to control in the least your vertical movement. I know I fall back on this all the time as an example but like I have said before you can't prove me wrong really. How will you team raise and move and lower in a tree rescue? That is the most common at height work job being preformed each day across the world. And saying you will just call for another tree company just doesn't cut it.
        Who's trying to prove you wrong? I just asked what I thought was a legit question?

        "Over an edge and out of view of the team" is still a team operation.

        Not sure exactly what your point is or what you're after here.

        Comment


        • #5
          I wasn't saying I am proving you wrong. Here is my view. You get a rescue that involves more then just lowering a person to a victim for rescue. Not only do you need to move vertically but also horizontally. Not horizontal in a means of "highlines" (something that is loved to be taught but who the hell really ever does it?). Aide climbing, and ascending smoothly should be part of training if you are a rescue company that gets involved with rope rescue. Self rescue then pick off rescue would be what I would think should be first thing learned once on rope (knots and gear learned first).

          If you are just over an edge and out of view of the team why would the team be doing the lowering of a rescuer to the vic? That was the over the edge team point I was at with that. Seem safer for the rescuer on rope to control them self, not to mention faster....

          here is where my frustration comes from (little background) I work at height everyday. I have friends in the FD both big city and small town. Both say they would be calling for another company like mine to come to do the rescue. Knowing the companies around me the ones that could make the rescue would most likely not be around to do so and the ones that would be around I wouldn't trust at all. This being the case. Why would a fire school not focus on rescues that have a better chance of happening in that region then just saying we will be lowering and raising on the side of the burn building, and you will get a few descents in as well. Just seems as though fire/rescue is behind the ball on this but doesn't want to admit it.

          But, if it seems as though I am just ranting and can't back this all, I challenge you or any other company to this ( and I hope one steps up and crushes it!!).... I challenge, a rescue company to make a rescue of an Arborist from a tree. The climber will not be near the center of the tree but out towards the tips of the canopy and lanyard in. A long limb walk with nothing much to hold onto on the way out to them. Say 80 to 90ft up (most towns have a tree that size). No ladder truck will be used or bucket truck either. Are any of you confident you and your company will make the rescue in a good time to not lose the victim?

          Am I calling out the the service right now on this...yup a little. But, it is an honest question of something that can and does happen to rescue companies. You train for Garden style apartment fires because you have them in your local..... do you not have tree care companies?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Fairfield View Post
            I wasn't saying I am proving you wrong. Here is my view. You get a rescue that involves more then just lowering a person to a victim for rescue. Not only do you need to move vertically but also horizontally. Not horizontal in a means of "highlines" (something that is loved to be taught but who the hell really ever does it?). Aide climbing, and ascending smoothly should be part of training if you are a rescue company that gets involved with rope rescue. Self rescue then pick off rescue would be what I would think should be first thing learned once on rope (knots and gear learned first).

            If you are just over an edge and out of view of the team why would the team be doing the lowering of a rescuer to the vic? That was the over the edge team point I was at with that. Seem safer for the rescuer on rope to control them self, not to mention faster....

            here is where my frustration comes from (little background) I work at height everyday. I have friends in the FD both big city and small town. Both say they would be calling for another company like mine to come to do the rescue. Knowing the companies around me the ones that could make the rescue would most likely not be around to do so and the ones that would be around I wouldn't trust at all. This being the case. Why would a fire school not focus on rescues that have a better chance of happening in that region then just saying we will be lowering and raising on the side of the burn building, and you will get a few descents in as well. Just seems as though fire/rescue is behind the ball on this but doesn't want to admit it.

            But, if it seems as though I am just ranting and can't back this all, I challenge you or any other company to this ( and I hope one steps up and crushes it!!).... I challenge, a rescue company to make a rescue of an Arborist from a tree. The climber will not be near the center of the tree but out towards the tips of the canopy and lanyard in. A long limb walk with nothing much to hold onto on the way out to them. Say 80 to 90ft up (most towns have a tree that size). No ladder truck will be used or bucket truck either. Are any of you confident you and your company will make the rescue in a good time to not lose the victim?

            Am I calling out the the service right now on this...yup a little. But, it is an honest question of something that can and does happen to rescue companies. You train for Garden style apartment fires because you have them in your local..... do you not have tree care companies?
            I work in an urban environment. Not a lot of tall trees around. But obviously there are plenty of guys who work around tall trees and tree care companies. There is no question about that. But how many guys have had to rescue an arborist from a tree? I've never heard of such a rescue. How many do you figure occur each year?

            But I have heard of fires in garden apartments. That's why departments train on them.

            Captain Sullenberger had to land a commercial airliner in the Hudson River. Should all airlines now have their pilots practice landing planes in rivers? You just have to pick your battles.

            I can only assume that if the arborist got to a given position that the rescuers will also get to that same position. You can't prepare for every exact scenario. You only prepare your skills and equipment and adapt on the fly to the situation at hand.

            I still don't really understand your motivation in presenting this challenge. Unless there is an epidemic of arborists dangling from trees that I don't know about.
            Last edited by captnjak; 04-16-2016, 03:22 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              So you have apartments in the local and you drill for them, you have car recks so you drill for them ( I always like the photos of buses rolled onto cars, that happens a ton!). You practice pick offs on the sides of buildings, along with highlines as well ( don't get me wrong, all of the above is great!) but you are doing so because they are in the local and have the "chance" of happening. Let me direct you to this website so I don't have to type out the amount of tree emerginceies that happen...http://dripline.net/category/accidents/

              So now that you can see that this is a regular happening that tree guys/gals need 911 often, I would think it would come to mind how would you make the rescue when a ladder or aerial can't reach? Think of it this way. You do by chance get that call. You have always drilled to have a team on the ground or above lower/raise a rescuer to a victim. Only now that is not an option due to the rescuer will have to be able to control them self in a canopy. Have you trained for such rope work? Do you have the ability to adapt gear you have to other uses to get things done?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Fairfield View Post
                So you have apartments in the local and you drill for them, you have car recks so you drill for them ( I always like the photos of buses rolled onto cars, that happens a ton!). You practice pick offs on the sides of buildings, along with highlines as well ( don't get me wrong, all of the above is great!) but you are doing so because they are in the local and have the "chance" of happening. Let me direct you to this website so I don't have to type out the amount of tree emerginceies that happen...http://dripline.net/category/accidents/

                So now that you can see that this is a regular happening that tree guys/gals need 911 often, I would think it would come to mind how would you make the rescue when a ladder or aerial can't reach? Think of it this way. You do by chance get that call. You have always drilled to have a team on the ground or above lower/raise a rescuer to a victim. Only now that is not an option due to the rescuer will have to be able to control them self in a canopy. Have you trained for such rope work? Do you have the ability to adapt gear you have to other uses to get things done?
                I went to the link you provided. I checked the first 100 incidents referenced there. NONE of them involved a trapped individual above the reach of ladders. As I would have guessed, most incidents involve electrocution, falls, equipment related and "struck by" injuries/fatalities. In addition, many of the incidents involve amateurs. Your scenario, I still contend, is a true one in a million type incident. It is just not realistic to train for every possible situation.

                I don't know if you're a firefighter or an arborist or both or neither. You seem to have a beef with firefighters not training for this scenario. I don't see it as a short-coming. I don't know what else to say to you. I'd be interested in hearing from others on this. Maybe I'm too much of a city boy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think what maybe the real issue is it may just be something to close to my interest ( climbing in general). Oh well, I will drop the subject as I really don't intend for this to offend anyone. No I am not a firefighter though, I am a climber.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's been a while since I've commented on the forums, but I thought I'd weigh in since I may be tracking what Fairfield is asking.

                    The argument for non-team based rescue skills may not be all that valid since for the vast majority of folks here, they will be responding as part of a team. By definition, the team will be there as part of the response.

                    There is definitely a fair argument that could be made re: individuals having the appropriate "personal" rope skills (e.g., ability to ascend a fixed rope, rappel, self-belay, etc.), but unless you are likely to need those skills and can keep them fresh through training or practice they are perishable skills. Most rescuers just don't need/use those skills given their likely response scenarios.

                    Bottom-up rescues requiring lead climbing skills are probably even less frequent than those requiring the ability to ascend or rappel. I strongly suspect most rescue teams aren't even equipped to use dynamic rope(s) in a rescue. There just isn't a need and the skills associated with lead climbing - particularly setting intermediate protection points - is another set of perishable skills.

                    Re: your scenario, I challenge the notion that you have to manage things from way off the deck in your 80-90 foot tree. In very general terms (i.e., not having specifics), I'd consider sending someone up the tree in lead climbing-type approach (belay from below, create intermediate anchors (wrap branches/the trunk along the way)). I'd have them trail some static rope so that I have line on the ground. I'd climb to just above the victim to set a pulley for a change of direction. Running the static (rescue) rope through the COD pulley, I'd then head out along the branch until I could reach my victim. I'd attach them to the rescue rope(s) using their harness (if approp) or via a victim harness (if approp) and get them secure. Instead of trying to manage the rescue solo from up in the tree, I'd have my teammates put a COD at the bottom of the tree on my rescue line and have them set up a lowering system on the ground. I could easily incorporate my lead climbing rope as a belay and we're good to go.

                    Managing the risk of a pendulum back into the trunk, etc. could all be dealt with by lowering out under tension via a separate line on the branch to provide just enough resistance against the pendulum effect.

                    Could you effect a rescue in your scenario from above and w/out the team? Definitely but it would involve a lot more risk and likely a lot more time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      See I hear about them all the time, but never see it talked about in the media so it never happens..... But......http://dripline.net/arborist-found-dead-tree-70-feet/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Fairfield View Post
                        See I hear about them all the time, but never see it talked about in the media so it never happens..... But......http://dripline.net/arborist-found-dead-tree-70-feet/
                        Ok, that's one arborist tree rescue (recovery in this case).

                        The team concept seems to have been used successfully there.

                        Not sure how it relates to your original post.

                        For the record, I am not now nor have I ever been offended by your posts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Just like fire departments prefer to prevent fires , if you are an arborist , how about you put some effort into eliminating the need for these "special" rescues?
                          ?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Boys its been a while since I've even looked at the forums. This was interesting enough for me to comment.. I understand where you're coming from. One of the problems with rope rescue training in general is the majority of the training comes from standard based programs that have a finite timeframe for certification. There simply is not enough time to run the myriad of scenarios when a rescuer based rescue is warranted. I agree with you 100%...It is slowly becoming a lost art. Many of us that view and post have outside training company's that offer the flexibility to offer "non-standardized" training when needed and can focus on the very skills you're talking about.

                            We apply a PACE methodology to our deliver...Primary, Auxiliary, Contingent, and Emergency. When possible we cover 4 techniques to mitigate a problem. For the typical rescue team, the PAC may be team based approaches..However, in an extreme situation, E may be a one-man show.

                            We also have been blessed to train some of countries finest warriors. When training a small functional unit whose primary responsibility is not rescue, the TEAM approach doesn't work in all situations. Many times, a rescuer run rescue is required. We can apply some of these concepts in our civilian response to include response to active shooters and mass casualty evacuation. Both topics that ALL of you on these forums need to be taking seriously (as most of you are municipal responders). The response model of 4 guys and 3 80-lb equipment packs doesn't work when needing to move quickly in a hazard environment.

                            Fairfield, I think you are on the right track...Regardless of the frequency of response. I agree that an adequate risk-benefit needs to be done to ensure we are executing as safely and efficiently as possible. But, we get better by honing personal skills. Personally, I think this is becoming a lost art. One last point..As responders we live in the "What If" world. I have been to hundreds of "how the hell did that happen call". I learned a long time ago to never say never and be mentally prepared to consider any option.

                            The lunch bell is being sounded so no time to proof read...Good topic.

                            Comment

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