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  • #16
    Originally posted by ProgressiveRescue View Post
    DCFDRescue2
    Great Idea! That's outside the box thinking.
    Mike Donahue
    I'll take credit for the picture and setting up of the Vortex in the pic, but the concept of this belay line operation I learned in a class.

    It does work out well though.
    Weekly updates on the world of rope:

    http://rescue2training.com/journal.html

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
      There is a newer school of thought, one with which I agree, that the belay line should be run through the high directional (HD) such as a tripod during the edge transition and lowered to ground level during the operation.

      This can be done by running your belay through a collapsed mini MA such as an AZTEK during the loading of the main line and be lowered by the edge attendant as the load is lowered into the space.

      If the main line fails during the edge transition, the load will not fall because it is suspended by the belay up high. If the belay is not rigged high during the transition and a mainline failure occurs, the load is going to fall a significant distance because the belay is several feet off of the deck to wherever the attachment point to the load is.

      If the HD fails during the edge transition, then the load is only going to fall the distance it would have were it not rigged through the HD.

      You can see in the attached picture that the load has cleared the edge and the belay is now run low though an extended AZTEK. This has the added benefit of being able to collapse the AZTEK and raise the load to the height of the HD should you need to haul back up on the belay because of a mainline failure.Also, while the picture was taken in the woods, the concepts obviously apply to a C space incident as well.

      Lets also keep in mind that failures during edge transition are usually caused by human error in rigging and not catastrophic equipment failure.
      Now THAT is slick. Yet another awesome use for the mini haul systems.
      Career Firefighter
      Volunteer Captain

      -Professional in Either Role-

      Originally posted by Rescue101
      I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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      • #18
        We run ours on the ground into the hole. I do not like attaching the belay to the tripod.
        DCFDRescue2 has some good points though...I would like to know what a 3 to 4 foot drop and catch would do to a tripod if we had a 2 person load.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by FIRECAPT62 View Post
          We run ours on the ground into the hole. I do not like attaching the belay to the tripod.
          DCFDRescue2 has some good points though...I would like to know what a 3 to 4 foot drop and catch would do to a tripod if we had a 2 person load.
          If done properly, you wouldn't have a 3-4 foot fall on the high directional.

          The only way that would happen, regardless of whether the belay was rigged high, low, through an AZTEK, etc... is if the belay was not being tended to properly and had 3-4 feet of slack in the system. Not to say the load can't move 3-4 feet in a belay activation because of rope stretch, but a two tension rope system is probably the subject of another thread.
          Weekly updates on the world of rope:

          http://rescue2training.com/journal.html

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          • #20
            If you’re using tandem prussic belays and if you have a sudden main line failure you will almost always have at least a 3 to 4 foot drop before the belay will catch. (This is in normal operations when the team is not suspecting a failure.) We have done drop tests to prove that point…we used a 300# and a 600# weighted systems.

            Anyway I think that there is some good discussion going on here. I like to run the belay on the ground and not attach to the tripod. There is no doubt that the transition through the hole is a problem and I will agree that a high point belay is best but I am not sure that I want to risk attaching it to the tripod.

            Remember…The life we save may be yours.
            MEDIC-0372

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            • #21
              Originally posted by MEDIC0372 View Post
              If you’re using tandem prussic belays and if you have a sudden main line failure you will almost always have at least a 3 to 4 foot drop before the belay will catch. (This is in normal operations when the team is not suspecting a failure.) We have done drop tests to prove that point…we used a 300# and a 600# weighted systems.
              This is why I like to use dual munter's for a two rope tension system. Truly have both lines loaded and equal weight distribution, little to no movement if something catastrophic happens. We too have loaded over 500 lbs on a dual munter and catch it with no movement. You can do this with confined space, as long as you have a MA piggyback system ready to reverse into a haul, this can be done with a Gibbs on the main line hooked to the MA. Edge attendant can mind the Gibbs open while lowering, let go of it if you need to come back up.

              I personally don't like two tension lines for confined space, but we have done it.
              ~Drew
              Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
              USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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              • #22
                From the beginning of my rope training I was taught the belay system should be a "hands free" system or in other words activate on it's own in the event the belayer was not doing their job. I've played with the munter hitch before and honestly the fact that you have to for the most part manually activate that system makes me question it's use in a life safety application. I'd love to hear some more thoughts and or experiences with munter belay systems. This seems to always be the great debate amoungst us rope guys.
                Great Postings!
                Mike Donahue
                "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You

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                • #23
                  In my personal opinion, it will depend a lot on my belayer. I don't need to be as comfortable with a certain belay system as the man running it does.
                  Career Firefighter
                  Volunteer Captain

                  -Professional in Either Role-

                  Originally posted by Rescue101
                  I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thanks for the topic. I'm glad to see people thinking about this issue. I don't think enough discussion is given to the dynamic situation created when rigging with a high point. During an edge transition you have two issues working against you: very little rope in the system and a 3' to 4' of rope slack in the belay. I believe the temp belay as pictured above addresses this issue. The most dangerous time for a rescue/training with a high point is during edge transition. I've seen guys death grip the tripod legs and strike them with the stokes while threading the a-frame. Even with the proper tiebacks you can still bump a leg over the side if you try hard enough.

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                    • #25
                      The munter hitch doesn't pass the whistle test.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        A professional knows not to let go of a rope when someone blows a whistle.
                        Did your drivers-ed teacher take you on the interstate and blow a whistle signalling you take your hands off the steering wheel, expecting the car not to crash?

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                        • #27
                          I've read a few posts that talked about tandem prussic belays. Not to switch the topic here but the use of a MPD or the I'D will substantially reduce the drop should there be a mainline failure. It also eliminates the need for a LRH . All in all it's a real time saver...more so on lowering operations because you can also lose the piggyback MAS. Does anyone have resistance in their departments towards using a MPD or I'D to replace tandem prussics? It seems that old skills are sometimes hard to kill.
                          Stay Safe,
                          Mike Donahue
                          "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TRT24 View Post
                            A professional knows not to let go of a rope when someone blows a whistle.
                            Did your drivers-ed teacher take you on the interstate and blow a whistle signalling you take your hands off the steering wheel, expecting the car not to crash?
                            The "whistle test" has nothing to do with blowing whistles or compensating for a lack of professionalism. It is meant to cover situations where circumstances might compromise the integrity of the rescue system due to personnel failure e.g.
                            - simple mistakes
                            - medical emergencies
                            - traffic hazards
                            - weather hazards
                            - wild animals

                            The blowing whistle is meant to simulate such occurrences.

                            Some agencies have adopted the whistle test as a necessary operational guideline and do not find it to be an inconvenience. My impression from interacting with other rope rescue practitioners is that compliance with the whistle test is considered a best practice in North America.

                            Certainly, the experience of other teams might be different, and their choice not to adopt the whistle test as an operational guideline just as valid.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              That comment was a little tongue-in-cheek, obviously I don't expect someone to blow a whistle on the scene so everyone lets go of the rope. With a true team of professionals, what are the odds that a situation is going to develop that incapacitates everyone at the same time. Your best rope man should be manning the belay, he is the one who has your back, and should be fully competent in that role, meaning he is cognisant of all that is going on around him not just watching edgeman and feeling the rope.

                              Whistle test - best practice: yes, should it always be followed: plenty of room for discussion here.

                              As some who routinely practices SRT I trust my skills on rope, and constantly weigh risks involved in any situation.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                TRT24: Do you have any good online references for SRT? Been looking for some for awhile and can't seem to find any. Mike, no real resistance to going to the ID, more of a financial issue than anything else. Do you find that using an ID for both lowering and belay requires more coordination between lowering rescuer and belayer? Been alot of talk lately about tensioned belay to eliminate the shock load on a system, any thoughts?
                                John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
                                Firefighter/Flight Paramedic
                                Broomall, PA

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