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videographer rights on a fire scene

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  • #16
    Sitting back reading all of this. If you think the chief is putting his guys at risk then why dont you speak with the state? And ive heard some states when the FD is called to your property for a fire the FD takes total control of your property untill the incident is rendered safe and turned over to landowner. Correct me if im wrong on this guys.. Theres a video floating around of a incident in upstate ny where a journalist with local tv and pushed by a neighbor at a incident. Ill try to find it.

    Video
    http://youtu.be/WkIyfezg4UM
    Last edited by d_holder86; 04-27-2011, 10:46 AM. Reason: add

    Comment


    • #17
      I agree with most of what you said, however you have to be careful what information you release durring an active scene. you never know how the camera people might be connected to the incident, or how whoever gets information from them might be.

      Comment


      • #18
        Well this has been very informative to say the least!... In response to ChiefKN, and LVFD301 I'm sure I will move on,.. I really dont have the time anymore to go to every call they get just to aggravate the chief there, which I will admit is exactly what I did. You have to understand that I was VERY dedicated to this dept. for 20 years and it did **** me off to get the boot for political reasons.

        To FWDbuff, thank you for your input, I am by no means a proffesional photographer and have no intentions of being one, but during the two incidents that i was video taping at i was well out of the way of any part of the operation. I do undrstand the aspect of the IC setting up a safe perimeter, although i'm pretty sure the chief who has a hard enough time establishing a plan of attack (which is obvious in the video) sure didnt have a safe perimeter set up at all.

        To d_holder86, I will be talking to a state official as soon as I gather all the information I feel I need to present to them.

        Comment


        • #19
          If you were a news media member, the following would apply to you in California:

          California Penal Code:

          409.5. (a) Whenever a menace to the public health or safety is created by a calamity including a flood, storm, fire, earthquake, explosion, accident, or other disaster, officers of the Department of the California Highway Patrol, police departments, marshal's office or sheriff's office, any officer or employee of the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection designated a peace officer by subdivision (g) of Section 830.2, any officer or employee of the Department of Parks and Recreation designated a peace officer by subdivision (f) of Section 830.2, any officer or employee of the Department of Fish and Game designated a peace officer under subdivision (e) of Section 830.2, and any publicly employed full-time lifeguard or publicly employed full-time marine safety officer while acting in a supervisory position in the performance of his or her official duties, may close the area where the menace exists for the duration thereof by means of ropes, markers, or guards to any and all persons not authorized by the lifeguard or officer to enter or remain within the enclosed area. If the calamity creates an immediate menace to the public health, the local health officer may close the area where the menace exists pursuant to the conditions set forth in this section.

          (b) Officers of the Department of the California Highway Patrol, police departments, marshal's office or sheriff's office, officers of the Department of Fish and Game designated as peace officers by subdivision (e) of Section 830.2, or officers of the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection designated as peace officers by subdivision (g) of Section 830.2 may close the immediate area surrounding any emergency field command post or any other command post activated for the purpose of abating any calamity enumerated in this section or any riot or other civil disturbance to any and all unauthorized persons pursuant to the conditions set forth in this section whether or not the field command post or other command post is located near to the actual calamity or riot or other civil disturbance.

          (c) Any unauthorized person who willfully and knowingly enters an area closed pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b) and who willfully remains within the area after receiving notice to evacuate or leave shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

          (d) Nothing in this section shall prevent a duly authorized representative of any news service, newspaper, or radio or television station or network from entering the areas closed pursuant to this section.


          409.6. (a) Whenever a menace to the public health or safety is created by an avalanche, officers of the Department of the California Highway Patrol, police departments, or sheriff's offices, any officer or employee of the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection designated a peace officer by subdivision (g) of Section 830.2, and any officer or employee of the Department of Parks and Recreation designated a peace officer by subdivision (f) of Section 830.2, may
          close the area where the menace exists for the duration thereof by means of ropes, markers, or guards to any and all persons not authorized by that officer to enter or remain within the closed area.
          If an avalanche creates an immediate menace to the public health, the local health officer may close the area where the menace exists pursuant to the conditions which are set forth above in this section.

          (b) Officers of the Department of the California Highway Patrol, police departments, or sheriff's offices, or officers of the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection designated as peace officers by subdivision (g) of Section 830.2, may close the immediate area surrounding any emergency field command post or any other command post activated for the purpose of abating hazardous conditions created by an avalanche to any and all unauthorized persons pursuant to the conditions which are set forth in this section whether or not that field command post or other command post is located near the avalanche.

          (c) Any unauthorized person who willfully and knowingly enters an area closed pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b) and who willfully remains within that area, or any unauthorized person who willfully remains within an area closed pursuant to subdivision (a) or (b), after receiving notice to evacuate or leave from a peace officer named in subdivision (a) or (b), shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. If necessary, a peace officer named in subdivision (a) or (b) may use reasonable force to remove from the closed area any unauthorized
          person who willfully remains within that area after receiving notice to evacuate or leave.

          (d) Nothing in this section shall prevent a duly authorized representative of any news service, newspaper, or radio or television station or network from entering the areas closed pursuant to this section.


          http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/wa...ction=retrieve
          everyonegoeshome.com

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by nmfire View Post
            The incident command has every right to keep everyone off the scene. It has absolutely nothing to do with property lines. Whatever the commander determines is the safe perimeter to keep civilians out, is it. Period, end of story. That includes the property owners, their friends, the media, and anyone else.

            If someone can see the scene from outside that perimeter, then have at it with your camera.
            Will your police really remove people?
            FF/Paramedic

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TNFF319 View Post
              Will your police really remove people?
              I was on the scene, personally involved, and witnessed a medical doctor get arrested for interference on the scene of a child struck by a vehicle. Paramedic was attempting to tube the kid and we were having a heck of a time trying to manage the kid's airway. The doctor was insistent that we just transport to a hospital about 10 miles away. The medic told him we weren't leaving until he had a tube. Doc said "I'm a doctor, you'll do what I tell you". Medic asked if he was medic command; Doc said no. Medic asked if he was going to ride in with us to the hospital, Doc again said no. Medic said then I'm in charge here and we're not leaving until this kid has an airway, easier to get one here than in the back of a moving ambulance. Doc grabbed the medic's shirt and said for us to load up and go. Medic turned to the municipal police officer and said "he's interfering with my care". On went the handcuffs and Doc watched the medic get a tube from the back seat of a police cruiser.

              So, yes, the police really will remove people.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by TNFF319 View Post
                Will your police really remove people?
                Why wouldnt they?
                "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by FWDbuff View Post
                  1. ANYTHING, and I repeat, ANYTHING is "fair game" from ANY public right-of-way, including streets, public sidewalks, etc. As long as you are not within a safety zone/perimeter as established by the Incident Commander, they may NOT stop you from photographing anything, and this includes patients of an auto extrication, their faces, or the faces of any responders.
                  I have to caution you on that train of thought. HIPAA Privacy Rules guarantee a patient's right to total privacy, including forbidding having their photo taken without their consent if their identity and their injuries can be identified.
                  I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by firepiper1 View Post
                    I have to caution you on that train of thought. HIPAA Privacy Rules guarantee a patient's right to total privacy, including forbidding having their photo taken without their consent if their identity and their injuries can be identified.
                    No it doesn't. It has nothing to do with it. You obviously don't even know what HIPPA stands for let alone what it means. Like most people, you throw it around having not clue what it even means. Your entire statement is completely wrong and total bull****.
                    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nmfire View Post
                      No it doesn't. It has nothing to do with it. You obviously don't even know what HIPPA stands for let alone what it means. Like most people, you throw it around having not clue what it even means. Your entire statement is completely wrong and total bull****.
                      Easy there cowboy! First of all, its HIPAA, not HIPPA. My statement was based upon the fact, since this is Firehouse.com, that the previous remarks came from an off duty firefighter or medic. And yes, since I have worked in both the pre-hospital and hospital setting, I am familiar with it. Especially this clause: "A patient must sign an authorization form before health information can be disclosed for marketing." So, lets say Mr. Off Duty Firefighter takes photos or video of your mother while she is being extricated from an accident. He then turns around and publishes these photos or places a video on Youtube. And, because your mother's face and injuries are identifiable, she starts getting mail, email and phone calls from chiropractors/pain management clinics/physical therapists,etc offering their services that she doesnt want. Did the photographer/off duty firefighter/medic disclose private medical record information, even though he or she is very familiar with HIPAA (not HIPPA)? Its muddy waters that lawyers cannot decide one way or another. Do you want to be the test court case? My advice, and my law director's, for anyone taking photos is never show a patient's face! We are not the media or a curious passerby or a buff. Remember this quote?: "The funny thing about firemen is, night and day, they are always firemen." Google it, its from a movie that was made about 7 years before you came on the job. Its a totally different ball game for us my friend. On duty or off. PS...Did I mention that its HIPAA and not HIPPA?
                      Last edited by firepiper1; 06-26-2011, 08:54 PM.
                      I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by firepiper1 View Post
                        I have to caution you on that train of thought. HIPAA Privacy Rules guarantee a patient's right to total privacy, including forbidding having their photo taken without their consent if their identity and their injuries can be identified.
                        It depends on who's taking the pictures and where the patient is. HIPAA doesn't apply to everyone.
                        "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                        sigpic
                        The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                          It depends on who's taking the pictures and where the patient is. HIPAA doesn't apply to everyone.
                          Exactly, as I stated in my very wordy post above. The media, the general public, no. My only caution is to fire/ems folks.
                          I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by firepiper1 View Post
                            So, lets say Mr. Off Duty Firefighter takes photos or video of your mother while she is being extricated from an accident. He then turns around and publishes these photos or places a video on Youtube.
                            He's off-duty and not providing billable medical care so HIPAA absolutely doesn't apply. (It may or may not apply when he's on-duty.)

                            As long as he and the accident are in a public place in plain view, he can take pictures to his little heart's content and publish them wherever he wants to. Under some circumstances, he can even sell those pictures.
                            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                            sigpic
                            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by firepiper1 View Post
                              Exactly, as I stated in my very wordy post above. The media, the general public, no. My only caution is to fire/ems folks.
                              FWIW, CT just passed a law making it illegal for medical responders (on-duty with the exception of official photos) to take recognizable pictures of a patient at a scene without the patient or patient's family's permission.

                              Off-duty repsonders, on the other hand, have no more restrictions on them than the general public.
                              "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                              sigpic
                              The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by firepiper1 View Post
                                So, lets say Mr. Off Duty Firefighter takes photos or video of your mother while she is being extricated from an accident. He then turns around and publishes these photos or places a video on Youtube. And, because your mother's face and injuries are identifiable, she starts getting mail, email and phone calls from chiropractors/pain management clinics/physical therapists,etc offering their services that she doesnt want.

                                Did the photographer/off duty firefighter/medic disclose private medical record information, even though he or she is very familiar with HIPAA (not HIPPA)?
                                That "off duty firefighter" is totally within their rights.

                                Its muddy waters that lawyers cannot decide one way or another. Do you want to be the test court case? My advice, and my law director's, for anyone taking photos is never show a patient's face! We are not the media or a curious passerby or a buff. Remember this quote?: "The funny thing about firemen is, night and day, they are always firemen." Google it, its from a movie that was made about 7 years before you came on the job. Its a totally different ball game for us my friend. On duty or off. PS...Did I mention that its HIPAA and not HIPPA?
                                It is not muddy at all... it is crystal clear.

                                You don't know what you are talking about. End of story.

                                You and your "law director" obviously don't understand the the law.

                                Btw, great job quoting "Backdraft" as part of your "legal" intepretation. I almost peed my pants over that...

                                Here read this... note who is a "covered entity".

                                http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa...ies/index.html
                                Last edited by ChiefKN; 06-26-2011, 09:08 PM.
                                I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                                "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                                "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                                Comment

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