Tools in the Cab

[JTFIRE80]

Got a question for the "older" folks with regard to change. At our station, we have recently (3-5 yrs) had a large influx of younger, more aggressive, train hard members. Myself, being the young Asst Chief, see things from what noth generations bring. Currently our station houses 2 Engines, 1 Rescue-Engine, and a Tower Ladder. All of the Engine have 8 Man cabs. I propsed that we take out the 2 non-pack seats in each apparatus and put tools in there (irons, hook, can, Tic, Rabbit tool). I got the look of "what are you retarded?" from the chief. When I explained my theory, basically you have your tools when you come off the truck, therefore you are ready to go. The chief's mentality was, well it's already in a side compartment somewhere, thay can just get it from the compartment, and how would you secure it in the cab? My reply was with manpower getting shorter these days, it would be nice to have the basic tools available without having to go all over the apparatus to different compartments looking for it. And not being able to secure it in the cab from what he said, I thought was just plain ignorance on his part. We do get 8 guys on the trucks fairly often, then only get one more truck out. I said you take 2 seats out, make them 6 man cabs, get an additional apparatus out, which IMO seems logical. Not to the Chief though. Anyway, I got the funding for the tools, the installation brakets, and got the Chief Engineers permission to take the seats out, and the support of 90% of the members who ACTUALLY RIDE THE TRUCKS. Now I'm stuck b/c I still can't get support from the chief. So, Any adivce???

[Dave1983]

Drop it. It looks too me like the Chief is pretty well set on this. No reason to put yourself on his sh*t list. Choose your battles wisley.

For what its worth, we dont carry any tools in the cab, except for handlights and the TIC. We put all the "basic" tools, the ones we use most often, in one compartment. No running around the truck pulling stuff out of different compartments required.

[BoxAlarm187]

I'm with Dave on this one. Looks like the Chief has taken a strong stance on this, and it's not worth the battle.

Both at work and at my VFD, we don't ride with tools in the cab either. The 5 seconds it takes to come out of the cab and walk to the forcible entry compartment doesn't truly effect the outcome of the incident.

[lvwrench]

I think that your chief may be cautioning on the side of liability, which is a good thing. Anything mounted in the cab is supposed to withstand a 9G force, if memory serves me correctly under NFPA standards. Hoping nothing happens but if it should; the tools could become lethal weapons.

[ullrichk]

I think the others have pretty well hit the nail on the head regarding this issue and your chief.

That said, I like the idea of some first-line tools being in the cab. There are mounts made for some tools that are designed specifically for the 9G (or whatever it is) rule so that they can be carried in the cab.

My short list would definitely include Irons and TIC. No room for a hook of any practical size and we don't have a rabbit tool.

[MG3610]

A fair compromise would be to get the tools out of the compartments and mount them on the exterior of the rig within easy reach. We have a 6' hook, Pick axe, FH axe and bar and 6' sheetrock rake all on the exterior of our rig. Theres an additional bar in one of the curb side compartments that I frequenty grab along with the 6' hook.

I would suggest the front bumper, but it looks like all 3 of your rigs have 2 bumper pans, limiting the space you can mount stuff there. The only secret to keepin tools on the outside is proper care. Clean and oil them every week or 2 or when they show signs of rust.

Kinda funny, when I belonged to my old VFD it took me almost a year, If memory serves right, to get them to buy just one 6' hook. Yeah, we didnt even have one! They didnt see the need for it, dinosaur mentality.

[JTFIRE80]

Thanks all for the words of wisdom. I Like the idea of having 1 compartment with the "basics" in it, but as with the tools in cab, its been tough to get little things that Chief's shouldn't worry about changed. I'm aware of the 9G rule, and have all the compliant mounting hardware for it.

Mg3610, Same thing here with the 6' hooks, it's taken a while. From what I see at different places, Pike poles are becoming a thing of the past. I know they have a place in the Fire service, but with most places using hooks, poles should be no less than 8 feet for apparatus IMO.

lvwrench, I agree on the liability issue, hense the proper mounting eqpt. The word liability though IMO is killing the Fire service as a whole. I know there has to a "responsible party" if something goes wrong, but nationwide, it's getting to the point where you can sometimes not do your job. I understand the aggressive vs safety vs liability, but that all falls under one category: Common sense. Either people have it, or they don't; that's where decisions are made.

On a side note, someone once told me this:
Being a Firefighter is 90% common sense, 9% training, and 1% of putting common sense and training together!

[MG3610]

Mg3610, Same thing here with the 6' hooks, it's taken a while. From what I see at different places, Pike poles are becoming a thing of the past. I know they have a place in the Fire service, but with most places using hooks, poles should be no less than 8 feet for apparatus IMO.

Not to sidetrack too much, but when you say pike poles, I assume you are refering to old fashioned standard head poles. Generally, these heads have very little value, as they are thin and the curve of the hook is drastic. The increase in popularity of hooks like the "All purpose" (or Halligan Head), Sheetrock Head, NY Hook, Boston Rake and others makes it much easier to do certain tasks. The issue is that when most companies spec new rigs they get thew typical NFPA hook compliment with hollow core fiberglass poles and standard heads. Basically useless tools. Getting some of the more task specific heads on longer poles will only be of benefit. In some of these McMansions, like you guys have in your district too, the 8' hook may be the tool of choice due to vaulted ceilings. Same goes for commercial buildings. Anyway, back to the original programming.

Perhaps you start small, one tool at a time in the cab. See what the response by the troops is and perhaps da Chief will come around. Just a thought. I still like having some tools on the exterior, mounted at a level you can reach from the ground for quick grab and go.

[LaFireEducator]

One addotional downside of tools in the cab (besides the safety issue) ....

Ya get to a job, and there seems like there is nothing too it, so the crew doesn't pull the tools. Now, if they need them, instead of just reaching into the outside compartment to get what they need, they now need to climb into the cab. Or you arrive with a driver only (if you are a vollie department) and the guys on scene needs tools.. they need to get into the cab to get the tools.

To me it's easier to keep them in an organized, dedicated tool compartment.

[MG3610]

One addotional downside of tools in the cab (besides the safety issue) ....

Ya get to a job, and there seems like there is nothing too it, so the crew doesn't pull the tools. Now, if they need them, instead of just reaching into the outside compartment to get what they need, they now need to climb into the cab.

To me it's easier to keep them in an organized, dedicated tool compartment.

Thats a training issue. The tools should come off for every run, including alarm bells.

[JTFIRE80]

Thats a training issue. The tools should come off for every run, including alarm bells.

True That!!

[Bones42]

Hmmm, put more tools in the cab...and Phoenix is removing SCBA's from the cab. Wow, talk about different ends of a theory!

Ok, a company near me went and put tools in their cabs for the reasons you stated above. What they found was guys were now slower getting off the truck and ready to go as they had an extra thing in their hands while trying to open the doors and step off the truck. Started having guys trip and miss steps. They ended up removing the tools and putting them back outside. Now maybe these guys were uncoordinated, but that is what they found happening.

And I disagree with putting it all in 1 compartment. Guys get off both sides of the truck so put the tools in each side. No need to make 2 guys walk around the truck to get their tools. Split your tasks and put the tools necessary for those tasks on the appropriate side of the truck. (Irons and Can sit on driver side, OV and Roof sit on passenger side - put right tools on each side)

[KenNFD1219]

Anyway, I got the funding for the tools, the installation brakets, and got the Chief Engineers permission to take the seats out, and the support of 90% of the members who ACTUALLY RIDE THE TRUCKS. Now I'm stuck b/c I still can't get support from the chief. So, Any adivce???

I'm not sure from your post, but please tell us that you did not get the funding for the tools and brackets and the Chief Engineers permission after the chief said no.

[LaFireEducator]

MG ...

Let me explain my post .....


I agree that if the truck is staffed the tools should come off for every call when the firefighters dismount if they know what thier assignment will be in advance. In a fully paid department with a dedicated crew or a volunteer department that sees a full crew in the truck all or most of the time, this could make the operation more efficiant (we won't discuss my safety concerns for the moment). However, in the case of a volunteer department such as ours where the custom cabs truck often roll with just a driver or a driver and front-seat firefighter, the tools in the cab may not be the most efficiant way to go. In addition to the SCBA in the cab, both the custom cab engine and rescue have several SCBAs and flashlights mounted in outside compartments, making it unecessary for the volunteers meeting the apparatus at the scene to actually get into the truck to mask up. In our case, mounting the tools in the cab would (in most cases) actually make our operations less efficiant. For us, tools in the compartments are the most efficiant way to go as the truck more often than not actually arrives without a dedicated crew, and if it does have a crew, each truck generally does not have a dedicated assignment.

[Dave1983]

And I disagree with putting it all in 1 compartment. Guys get off both sides of the truck so put the tools in each side. No need to make 2 guys walk around the truck to get their tools.

I guess I should have specified, one compartment per side.