Grandfathered... Is it safe?

[Ohiofiremed57]

Our dept. has a few personal that are "grandfather'd" into the fireservice.
For those who do not know what that is, "grandfathered" is a firefighter that has evolved through the fireservice, begining before 1965(or something like that) these people are not subject to taking ANY formal fire training.
As a firefighter under the comand of these "OL TIMERS", I am here to tell you that the fireservice has evolved over the years and the old sane "put the wet stuff on the red stuff" just does'nt cut it anymore! I personally do not believe that being in the service for years substitutes hundreds of hours of fire training.
I have debated this issue of years vs. training with several fire service profesionals. I have yet to recieve an answer that is satisfactory to myself or to my family, that I promise I will return home to after work. This is a concern that is eating away at me...
I need some input from others....any input will help me get over this fear of inpending doom....ANYTHING!

"The few, the proud, the insane!" ------------------


[This message has been edited by Ohiofiremed57 (edited January 18, 2000).]

[Squad33]

Well I think it dedends on the individule. Do they keep up with new skills or say "back in the ol'days we ate smoke and liked it!" I do belive that actual experiance is very valuble and that these guys have seen things you just can't see, hear, or feel on the training ground. I know thats a very undifenitive answar but its what I got!

Train how you play and
PLAY HOW YOU TRAIN

Steve

[Ohiofiremed57]

I have had several years of expirence in the fire service. I agree that expirence is a training in it self. but... the way fireground tactics were operated 20 yrs. ago, and the way they are operated now, are completly different... For example pos. pressure ventilation. I have used it for years, and have taught in it's operation for just as long. When a so called "ol timer" arrives before my Engine Co. does, and orders ventilation efforts(such as breaking anything that is glass) and my crew implements an aggressive interior attack... Does this compliment our mission of protecting LIFE and PROPERTY??? I don't think... what began as a simple contents fire, has now (with the help of our "grandfathers") has evolved into a complete structure fire.... this is one of many examples I have...
As a past training officer, I have made every attempt to bring these people up to date with modern day techniques. For this I recieve dirty looks and treated like an imposter....

For Life and Property... I hope!

[R5]

For many years, I have asked the same question you have posed. Here in South Carolina, we don't have a "grandfathering" system such as yours; however, we do have many command level officers with personnel management, fire command, and fireground tactics which are stuck in the late '60's or early '70's (if that late).
What can be done about this? Unfortunately, not a bunch! What are some things you can do until the dinosaurs die off? Several. First,continue your training and education- it never hurt anyone, but has saved many. Second, show others, including those old timers, what the new techniques are during training sessions. Will it help? Maybe they'll see the light. If not, at least other members will get the new info and come to you or others with knowledge when the time is called for. Third, as long as you're in the fire service, never allow your knowldege and education drive to stop. Don't become what needs to be eradicated. Lastly, remind your students not to let their skills and training levels drop as they advance in rank. Pass on what you have seen so the same mistakes aren't perpetuated.
Good luck.

[Bob Snyder]

There is no room for "grandfathering" when it comes to training. All the experience in the world isn't a substitute for practicing skills with the people that you will need to work with RIGHT NOW. Even if that experienced person doesn't pick up one new technique in a given drill, that person may learn how to work well with someone else who is new to the crew, or that drill might be more valuable because of the participation of that experienced person.

The broader issue here is leadership...everyone needs to have elected (or appointed) officers that are willing to lead by example. Back in 1992, my company began to implement what has become our certification S.O.G.: all active members shall take and pass the 88-hour state essentials course within their first two years; all firefighters shall make 25% or more of drills, work details and fund raising (50% for officers); etc. One of the major reasons that this formal policy got off the ground and stuck was the fact that nobody was grandfathered. At the time the informal policy that led to the S.O.G. began, the Chief (with more than 25 years active and 10 years as Chief at that time) put himself in the first Essentials class with everyone else. The only people excused were those who already held FF-I or FF-II certifications, and most of them participated anyway, just to make the course more valuable for everyone. Under those conditions, it wasn't hard to get the reluctant ones to participate, even without strong-arm tactics.

[Scooter]

I thought about this for awhile before I posted a reply. I have been on both sides of this issue. With 25 years in a variety of departments, I have seen the pro & con of both. If the individual that was grandfathered in to a specific rank keeps current and continues to practice his skills there should not be a problem. On the same hand, the rookie EMT-B or FFI that has two or three burns in the burn building and hours of training, does NOT have any real experience and can not be expected to perform like the individual with a ton of experience or as has happened required to take command. There is no easy answer, if there were this wouldn't be a challenge and we would not do it. Senior firefighters and officers must lead by example. I'm the chief of a small department, and i had 410 hrs of training last year.

We stop learning, when we stop living!

[Ohiofiremed57]

GREAT.... keep em comming...

MAC

[Wolf2980]

Ohiofiremed57,
I understand your concern with elder members, but we do not have the experience that these members have. They learned not in classrooms but out in the real world. That world also had fires that were a lot more frequent and worse than the fires we encounter today.
Our department has found a solution that most members agree with; social membership. They have served as leaders on the fireground and now move to civic leadership with in the company. They leave the fire fighting to the new generation and run the buissness end of the firehouse.

[Ohiofiremed57]

Sounds good Wolf, im all for it! Just keep em off of my fire scene. We have not near enough buckets to put the fires out now days. There are a few GF's that are very intelegent, and I would trust w/ my life. Then there are those that I would'nt be caught dead on a fire scene with. I agree that expirence pays off. But I don't agree that the way people fought fires 20 yrs. ago, and the way we do it now, are anywhere close too each other. "been doing it this way for 25 years, why change it now".... NOT!
This is what I get as a reply for updating training. My reply is usually " they used buckets years ago, and they worked fine. So why do we have fire trucks and fire hose?"

For life and property

[This message has been edited by Ohiofiremed57 (edited January 31, 2000).]

[Lieutenant Gonzo]

I share the same sentiments as Ohiofiremed57.
Some of the older firefighters who got the bulk of their training "on the job", before the days of fire academy training are receptive to listening to new ideas and willing to train, while others are just counting the days until retirement. They are found in both career and volunteer departments. If they have to be on the fireground, they can work in support capacities, like changing SCBA bottles, picking up hose, etc. They might bitch, but the crew busting hump inside should not have to do the mundane things.

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Take care and be safe...Lt. Gonzo

[mfgentili]

I think we must look at every firefighter individually. It makes absolutely no difference where or when knowledge is gained. If I feel a firefighter, regardless of age, knows more than me, then I will listen to him/her. If on the other hand, I don't have confidence in their knowledge then I won't. I am not saying to disrespect rank in any way. A rank structure is needed in every department. In the Incident Command System, the IC has the final say. As long as your life in not placed in any foolish, unnecessay risk you must abide by their decision. Through the years, I have personally taught over 100 recruit firefighters for my department. Some of them, I consider to be excellant firefighters and I will gladly listen to them today even though I taught them and outrank them. Others suck and I won't listen to a word they say. This also applies to the old timers who have learned through experience. Some are good, others are not.
Ohiofiremed57, I don't know when the fire scene became your exclusive property but don't ever think the "grandfathers" have nothing to offer. One of them may someday save your life. Look at each individual and then decide if they have anything useful to offer you. If they do, learn from them. If they don't, dismiss them. Just don't lump them all into one category based upon their age or when and how they gained their knowledge.

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Mike Gentili

[Ohiofiremed57]

Mike I think that you should read all of the replies before inserting your foot into you mouth. Some friendly advise. As far as the "lumping" thing, thats where you should gather some info before posting your reply. As I stated in one of my latests replies. There are very intelligent firefighters and there are those in which I would'nt wish on anyone... My concern is for the few that are dangerous to themselves and their peers. This topic is not one to take offense to, only a mear concern that has been eating away at me for years. And where did I say that "grandfathers have nothing to offer"? Im still looking for the location of that one...
And where the scene became "my scene" is when I put my life, and the lives of my crew, on the line. That I call "my scene"...like it or not.

For Life and Property.
MAC

[mfgentili]

MAC,
I did read your post an am doing what you asked in the last sentance of your original post<..."I need some input from others....any input will help me get over this fear of inpending doom....ANYTHING!"> I'm merely offering that input. If you don't want to hear opinions that differ from your own then you shouldn't ask for them in the first place. In all of your replies you only seem to have a problem with the "OL TIMERS" as you call them. That's where the "lumping" thing comes in. My remarks are meant just to remind you that there are boneheads in every age group, rank, gender, etc. As for the fire scene being yours, no, it will always by "OURS"...like it or not. This always was and always will be a team effort. As you stated, this topic is not one to take offense to, and I certainly don't. I'm still in my forties so I don't consider myself one of your "grandfathers" yet . If I offended you in any way, I apologize. Maybe we are really on the same page here but it is often difficult to express true feelings and emotions in print. The reader often misses the point that the writer is trying to convey. Nothing personal here, just opinion. And we all know what opinions are like. Everyone has one and most of them stink. Peace brother.

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Mike Gentili

[Ohiofiremed57]

Thanks for the input. It is much needed. This topic sometimes makes me a little hypertensive... But the fire scene is mine....LOL keep up the good work.
'the few, the proud, the insane"

For Life and Property.
MAC

[Wolf2980]

Ohio,
Is the fire scene truly yours? Are you the incident commander? Are you the chief, Captain or LT? If you are the Chief then the fire scene may in fact be yours, if not then you are just being egotistical. "get them off my fire scene" like you own it or something. Just because you department lets you play with your hose dosn't make you god's gift to the fire service. Also, you can come up with the newest inovation, but all it comes down to is put the wet stuff on the red stuff, and "grandpa" could probably still knock the hell out of a fire