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Mutual aid request denied by city official

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  • MemphisE34a
    replied
    Originally posted by mikeyboy411 View Post
    Yes sir, you are correct..... Refusal results in an investigation, discipline and possible removal of the Unit. It's a very defined process and Cal-EMA (formerly OES) takes it seriously.
    Although I can't say for sure, I bet that CAL-EMA really doesn't care what happens around Johnson City, TN.

    Leave a comment:


  • HBofCJ
    replied
    I am not quite sure how mutual aid agreements can effect ISO Ratings, which would effect building insurance rates or insurance availability. Mutual aid is ISO neutral....it does not help, but it usually does not hurt either .... unless you end up helping others much more than others help you. Then it MAY directly affect many different ISO aspects.

    Auto aid plans definitely affect ISO Ratings. But even then it can be a double edged blade. It all depends how much and how often who helps whom on that first alarm structure fire call out. I do not think mutual aid denials can be legally actionable. There is no legally defined requirements to automatically help somebody else out with mutual aid

    The needful agency must ask after that first alarm structure fire turnout. Of course this does not address other agreements regarding grass, interface, wildfires, big floods, etc.. Just structure fires. On the West Coast, it is not unusual for a City Manager to counterman a mutual aid response ordered by the Fire Chief. It does happen. HB of CJ (old coot)

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  • fire49
    replied
    How does the agreement read???

    Are they suppose to supply a minimum amount of equipment and or manpower??

    If so and they are not doing it, seems like the city attorney can send something saying you are in violation of the agreement and after this set date we will no longer respond

    Leave a comment:


  • peak85
    replied
    In my area we have recently been faced with the not so mutual aid. I work for a paid city department that is surrounded by several volunteer departments. When I started in 2005 until recent, these volunteer departments would respond into our area for support on structural fires and we would do the same for them (mutual). The volunteer departments like most in our area have had an increase in calls, but continue to lose volunteers. The paid staff is now starting to handle calls on a regular basis for the volunteer departments, because they have no one to respond and we are no longer getting any support from them when needed (not mutual). The problem we are faced with is all the fire departments within our county have signed a mutual aid agreement, basically for insurance purposes.

    Is anyone else faced with something similar to this and how did you change or adjust this agreement that is no longer working?

    Leave a comment:


  • fire49
    replied
    would you say there are mutual aid agreements, and then there are your departments/city's procedures/ laws, etc. that you have to go by?

    mutual aid agreement, yes respond per them.

    But if a neighbor city does not have an agreement with you, do you supply your city resources, liablty, etc, to go into their city??

    Leave a comment:


  • mitchkrat
    replied
    We have same discussion on leaving coverage in our area

    I'm on the side of help thy neighbor when in need and if needed have another neighbor cover your area.

    Most of our neighbors are 10 to 15 miles apart. If we refuse and have them call the next neighbor help was delayed by 10 to 20 minutes to the original call.

    I also believe in inviting neighbors to the call and then canceling if not needed - I have seen calls where they waited until arrival and then called for help and the delay possibly prevented saving more property.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chief_Roy
    replied
    I was actually surprised by this thread because denial of mutual aid is something I'm quite familiar with. I don't know how many of you run medic transport, but we do. We have several fire and private agencies around us who also provide medic transport. If they run out of units, they'll start calling the next nearest, etc. We'll send help, fire or ambulance, until doing so would deplete our response capabilities to our own citizens. Once we reach that point, we refuse to respond on mutual aid. It easily happens a couple times a year, if not more.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    Originally posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    ...Granted, we don't do station transfers, but we could easily respond from our stations into those districts and have a response time in line with what their average response time is...
    That right there would tell me why they are not requesting you. They need coverage for their area and you are staying in your city....ready to respond to a call in your city, which would then leave them no coverage?

    Leave a comment:


  • bcjack
    replied
    Originally posted by mikeyboy411 View Post
    Interesting situation..... Seems like liability could be assumed by the Official if it caused additional harm and/or damage. Simple enough to prove that there was a blatant breech of Contract, they wouldn't need Johnny Cochran on this one.
    Johnny Cochran is dead.....

    Leave a comment:


  • FireMedic049
    replied
    Originally posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Things like this happen all the time. Some Union Fire Departments may be such that they will never call upon volunteer departments for Mutual aid - just not getting any aid and depending on call ups.
    While I don't disagree that this happens, there are also volunteer departments that will not or will very rarely call upon a career department for Mutual Aid.

    My small city is directly surrounded by around a dozen volunteer stations and mutual aid requests from them each year is less than a dozen. It's also not uncommon to call units that will have to drive thru our city (sometimes past our stations) in order to get to the call, even though we are much closer. We don't even get asked to do standby coverage for them. Granted, we don't do station transfers, but we could easily respond from our stations into those districts and have a response time in line with what their average response time is.


    As far as relying on callbacks or "call ups" as you put it goes, depending on the specifics of the department, they are a very reasonable option vs mutual aid. For example, we live in our city, so when we do a callback for a fire, our off-duty response isn't much different than what a mutual aid response would be. Sometimes, that's all we need. Sometimes we need more and we on the other hand have no choice but to call upon the volunteers when we need help.

    Leave a comment:


  • LVFD301
    replied
    Things like this happen all the time. Some Union Fire Departments may be such that they will never call upon volunteer departments for Mutual aid - just not getting any aid and depending on call ups.

    In TN the only thing the state has as a requirement is vehicle obtained through Forestry must be available for mutual aid to the Forestry department. (TN being the state I believe the OP is from)

    I hope someone has pointed out to that city leader that the mutual aid works both ways.

    Leave a comment:


  • b.jones
    replied
    Why yes I have, in fact our county commissioners promote NOT having mutual aid. Not only that they, as well as the local city fire department, and local ambulance refuse to use NIMS or ICS. I have also seen where they have called off other resources so that only one specific resource can be used. Even if it means threatening the well being of the victim.

    Leave a comment:


  • mikeyboy
    replied
    Mikey ...

    Aren't departments that choose to receive OES engines required to provide mutual aid statewide with that engine?
    Yes sir, you are correct..... Refusal results in an investigation, discipline and possible removal of the Unit. It's a very defined process and Cal-EMA (formerly OES) takes it seriously.

    To add another point to my previous post, if there is not a Mutual Aid or Auto Aid Agreement with the FD that responds (Feds or State) then a bill will be sent. They stressed this in a Strike Team Leader Class I recently sat in. There are very simple ways to ensure this won't happen, but that is a whole other topic.

    We hear a lot of "this is above my pay-grade" and I imagine this could apply to the City Official case also.
    Last edited by mikeyboy; 03-25-2011, 04:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • pasobuff
    replied
    Here is an example of a mutual aid agreement in NYS - this is for a county, with fire departments within the county agreeing to provide aid if requested.....and in NY, mutual aid is actually defined by law.....

    http://www.gwe2.org/mutual.htm

    As far as funding etc...in this example county - if a department withdraws from the plan -
    Any fire company or fire department withdrawing from this plan, upon the effective date, shall surrender and return to the Rockland County Fire Coordinator, Rockland County Fire Training Center , Firemen�s Memorial Drive , Pomona , New York , all county-owned equipment. Such withdrawal shall remain in effect until reinstated by resolution as defined by Section 209 of the General Municipal Law.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Mikey ...

    Aren't departments that choose to receive OES engines required to provide mutual aid statewide with that engine?

    Leave a comment:

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