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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
    You do realize how conradictory this sounds?

    The part of WE feel will be best...we represent.

    That sure sounds like a leadership agenda to me.
    No, I don't believe it's contradictory at all.

    They're appeared to be an accusation made that all union leadership was only concerned with their own agenda and personal gains. Obviously if a person is mainly concerned about personal gains, then their agenda would reflect that and I was speaking to that.

    I clearly stated that there is a "leadership agenda". There will always be one in any organization with any leader who's doing his/her job. You think the POTUS doesn't have an agenda? However, our agenda is not one focused on personal gain for the leadership, but rather on what we feel will benefit the membership as a whole.

    Isn't it up to the membership to decide what is best for them? Does the membership get to offer suggestions or do they just get to vote on the leaderships recommendation?
    The membership is free to offer suggestions and make recommendations. We will consider them and make a decision on how to proceed on the matter and not always in the direction that we would like to have gone.

    For example, in our last contract negotiation, the Union leadership felt that instituting a limited EMS response program would be beneficial. Aside from the benefit to the public of such a program, we felt that doing so would help to make us a little more indispensable in the eyes of the community and the increased workload could possible lead to some additional staffing to make the early stages of our fires a little safer. So, we put the matter on the table for discussion with the City.

    We knew the matter would be controversial with the membership, but felt it was the right course. During the negotiating process, the membership expressed their opinions and concerns on the matter and in the end, the matter was dropped.

    Some matters ultimately go before the membership for decision. Others don't because that's kind of the point of a "representative democracy".


    No, I am not in a union. But I do know the one I deal with everyday only gets to vote yes/no on what their leadership proposes. And yes, they elect that leadership, once a year. Just curious if that is normal or a rare occurrence.
    Can't say for sure if it's normal or rare, just that it's not how we do business.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
      They have no use for yard firefighters or scabs either!
      Just curious where I am a "scab"?
      Train to fight the fires you fight.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by FireMedic049 View Post
        Actually, that's not really the case, at least not with the IAFF.

        At the local level, "the Union" IS the employees, not someone from outside the department. The Union Officers ARE bargaining unit employees. The Union is also very much a "representative democracy" in its operation - basically the same as most governments in the US.

        The Union Officers are elected by the membership. The Union Officers are empowered to act on behalf of the membership regarding certain matters. Many issues, specifically the ratification of collective bargaining agreements, are decided by majority vote of the entire membership of the Local. Constitution and By-law (of the Union) matters typically require a super-majority of the membership for creation, modification or repeal.

        For the most part the IAFF (at the top level) and the State Association don't deal with local level issues unless requested to help by that particular Local Union. Their focus otherwise is typically on political, legislative or other matters of interest or impact on their entire membership. Like at the local level, the election of officers (who are IAFF members, not "hired guns") and governing document matters are done by the membership - via elected delegates of each Local at the Bi-annual Conventions.


        Nobody is considered to be a traitor unless they commit an act of treason against the Union.



        Please do. I'm curious as to what other ignorant views you have on my Union.
        Was simply referring to the fact that a union would try to tell me where I could and could not volunteer for the benefit of the IAFF while they have members who routinely work as carpenters, electricians and in other trades a as non-union contractor taking work away from trade union members, and little if anything is ever said about this practice.
        Train to fight the fires you fight.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
          Was simply referring to the fact that a union would try to tell me where I could and could not volunteer for the benefit of the IAFF while they have members who routinely work as carpenters, electricians and in other trades a as non-union contractor taking work away from trade union members, and little if anything is ever said about this practice.
          Well, the short answer would be that IAFF members working non-union jobs in other trades simply doesn't directly impact other IAFF members while on the job.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by FireMedic049 View Post
            Well, the short answer would be that IAFF members working non-union jobs in other trades simply doesn't directly impact other IAFF members while on the job.
            But it certainly does have an impact on other AFL-CIO union brothers.

            Bottom line is I have an issue with a union telling me what I can't and can do on my off-time.

            That is my biggest problem with the IAFF.
            Train to fight the fires you fight.

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            • #21
              FireMedic049, thanks for the answers.
              "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                But it certainly does have an impact on other AFL-CIO union brothers.
                Maybe. Just so we're clear, what type of work are we talking about? Are talking about working for non-union contractor that outbids a union contractor for a job? Are you talking about working as an independent contractor that out bids a union contractor for a job? Are talking about doing work as an individual (whether paid, "helping a friend" or charity work like Habitat for Humanity) and thus not needing a union person to perform the work?

                Bottom line is I have an issue with a union telling me what I can't and can do on my off-time.

                That is my biggest problem with the IAFF.
                Well, technically speaking, they aren't telling anybody what they can or can't do. A person is still free to do what they want to, however they've been notified that there may be consequences for that decision.

                So, if a member of your department was doing something you felt to be detrimental to the department you wouldn't take action to address that?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                  FireMedic049, thanks for the answers.
                  You're welcome. Always willing to explain my positions.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FireMedic049 View Post
                    Maybe. Just so we're clear, what type of work are we talking about? Are talking about working for non-union contractor that outbids a union contractor for a job? Are you talking about working as an independent contractor that out bids a union contractor for a job? Are talking about doing work as an individual (whether paid, "helping a friend" or charity work like Habitat for Humanity) and thus not needing a union person to perform the work?


                    Basically talking about the firefighter which has his own building, carpentry,plumbing or electrical business on the side, which competes with other "union" builders, carpenters, electric ans, plumbers and the like.



                    Well, technically speaking, they aren't telling anybody what they can or can't do. A person is still free to do what they want to, however they've been notified that there may be consequences for that decision.

                    So, if a member of your department was doing something you felt to be detrimental to the department you wouldn't take action to address that?
                    Sure, but I guess it comes down to what you define as detrimental.

                    Defining a volunteer organization abutting a city with fulltime staff is not having any affect on the members of the career department, and saying that a career member cannot volunteer there is simply silly. The same is true even if they have a very small career core staff primarily to perform maintainence and basic operational functions such as preplans, hydrant testing and hose testing.

                    That has no affect on that all career department.
                    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                      Basically talking about the firefighter which has his own building, carpentry,plumbing or electrical business on the side, which competes with other "union" builders, carpenters, electric ans, plumbers and the like.
                      So basically engaging in legal business practices that may or may not be actually competing for work against a union contractor is hypocritical? Interesting.


                      Sure, but I guess it comes down to what you define as detrimental.

                      Defining a volunteer organization abutting a city with fulltime staff is not having any affect on the members of the career department, and saying that a career member cannot volunteer there is simply silly. The same is true even if they have a very small career core staff primarily to perform maintainence and basic operational functions such as preplans, hydrant testing and hose testing.

                      That has no affect on that all career department.
                      Well, I see we need to go over this again.

                      1) A volunteer fire department is not a "rival organization" simply because they are a volunteer fire department.

                      2) There is no ban on volunteering in an all volunteer department.

                      3) Restricting volunteering in a combination department with an IAFF Local is not about the effect on the "all career department". It's about the effect on the IAFF members working in the combination department. In some cases, the issue is how IAFF members are treating other IAFF members.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jhecht1 View Post
                        Hello all,

                        First off I currently work at a municipal owned ambulance service full time. We employee both full time and part time staff. A few co-workers want to go union with the IAFF. What are the pros and cons of having a union. Right now we are currently the highest paid EMS service in the county and one of my fears is that once we go union we are going to lose wages. Also what can the union do for the part time employees? and lastly I'm a P.O.C. for the fire department which is all POC other than the chief and fire inspector, with us going to IAFF will I have to give up my position as a firefighter. With the ambulance service I am one of the full time staff and its strictly EMS no firefighting. Thanks
                        In answer to the first question, one of the pro's of being in a union is keeping the high pay you have now. without some type of written agreement between employees and employer, you are at the whim of the the employer as to how they treat you. I'm not saying that will happen, and yes there would be a net decrease in pay (union dues) but there would also be a non-negotiable standard for which both sides would have to maintain.

                        Without a contract, you are one good-old-boy, or cost cutting decision away from loosing all you have.

                        Just my 2C.
                        FireOps.net - Let your Fire Geek Show

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