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ISO's new FSRS

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  • #31
    Originally posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Engine = 4 SCBA and 4 Spares

    Truck/Service = 6 SCBA and 6 Spares


    I beleive LA uses the same numbers...

    But assuming 64 are required...

    64 is required if you have 16 Engines (4 x 16 = 64)

    64 is required if you have 10 Engines and 4 Trucks/Service. (4 x 10 = 40 Plus 6 x 4 = 24/ Total 64)



    If he is referring to riding positions, a 10 man (Engine) cab, this requires 10. The Engine only gets credit for 4. You may be able to apply 6 to a Combined Service Apparatus. But SOP must stipulate what Apparatus is responding.
    Could be wrong, but I thought he was running a few commercial/2man engine cabs and a bunch of brush trucks.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

    Comment


    • #32
      I really don't have any idea...

      I was just illustrating what kind of numbers needed to get to 64.

      Brush trucks usually don't get much credit unless you are really stretching Service Points. Tank too small, pump too small, and capability for structure fires... to small, not to mention lack of equipment. You can be creative, but there is a limit. Common Sense.

      6 SCBA on a brush truck might get Service Credit, but that is only part of the points. Even if you split load the 6 beween the brush truck and a Engine, you still need more points. So it has to make sense and expained in your SOPs. If the proctor can't see it, then you get no credit.

      Mini/Midi Pumper designation is a better choice for Service... it still can be a Brush truck, but it should just be a bigger version and not ID'd Brush #454.

      Now... having said all of this... I have worked with proctors that were easy going and didn't make a huge deal out of little stuff. Some of the others are by the book. Then, there are the guys in the middle that you can never figure out.
      HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

      Comment


      • #33
        I have worked with proctors that were easy going and didn't make a huge deal out of little stuff. Some of the others are by the book. Then, there are the guys in the middle that you can never figure out.
        I've done 2 ISO's with my Department. Both my proctors fit into option 1.
        "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
          Yes. It's nonsense. Then again, I'm not sure where you are coming up with 64 SCBA's needed.

          Engine, min of 4. Truck, min of 5, from what I remember.
          LA property rating requires 4 on an engine irregardless of seats and 6 on a service.

          We have 6 engines (24) and 6 service trucks (36). One of our tankers, our heavy rescue and light rescue fills dual roles as a service trucks in addition to the three trucks designated purely as service.

          That's 60.

          We also maintain 4 spares, which we carry on our reserve engine. We can switch them out to the engines and service units to maintain that number but come inspection time they have to be on the reserve pumper.

          Our rating does not look at brush trucks unless they also serve as service trucks, in which case, they are counted as service.
          Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-17-2011, 02:57 PM.
          Train to fight the fires you fight.

          Comment


          • #35
            PK, can I load up my tankers to make them service trucks also? My big issue is where to put all those airpacks on our brush trucks....

            I have two stations, about 9 miles apart. If I put a fully equipped service truck at one, would it help or not to put one at the other station? Or is the only way I get full service truck points by having one at each station (5 mile circle)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by LVFD301 View Post
              PK, can I load up my tankers to make them service trucks also? My big issue is where to put all those airpacks on our brush trucks....

              I have two stations, about 9 miles apart. If I put a fully equipped service truck at one, would it help or not to put one at the other station? Or is the only way I get full service truck points by having one at each station (5 mile circle)
              Under the LA system, yes. In fact it's quite a common practice and many department's tankers actually count on the rating as service trucks.

              My combo department has one tanker which carries a full compliment of service equipment including 6 SCBA, 6 spare cylinders, K-12, chainsaw, generator, pike poles, lights and a vent fan giving it full service truck credit. it also carries a 35-foot ladder which gives us extra credit.

              MY VFD's tankers are not setup with enough compartment space to carry the full compliment. They do carry some of the equipment however which gives us partial credit. One of the 2 tankers carries a 35-foot ladder.
              Train to fight the fires you fight.

              Comment


              • #37
                I have heard that the maximum age for a pump apparatus is 10 years in front line service and 15 years in reserve status, or "you lose credit".

                ISO's web site says they do not limit the age of apparatus. Is this age limit a rumor, or is it true? And if it's true, where is it written?

                Thanks -

                phil

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by LVFD301
                  PK, can I load up my tankers to make them service trucks also? My big issue is where to put all those airpacks on our brush trucks....

                  I have two stations, about 9 miles apart. If I put a fully equipped service truck at one, would it help or not to put one at the other station? Or is the only way I get full service truck points by having one at each station (5 mile circle)

                  First, let me say.... sorry for the long delay in answering. I have been getting situated in my current (newest) command and time has been somewhat an issue. No rest for us old dogs it seems.


                  A common way to get the Service Points is to declare Combined Service Apparatus on some of your fleet.

                  By doing this you can catch the Service Points by carrying some of the Service Equipment on Engines, Tankers or Squads. But try to limit this to combining two vehicles that make sense and that typically roll together.

                  Engines are the most common since you usually carry a lot of the Service Equipment anyway. Between an Engine and Service Truck you need 10 packs and spares. Carry 6 on the Engine & 4 on the Truck, or some combination so all can get to the scene.

                  Carry ladders and pike poles on the Engine... we do this anyway... right? If you use a Squad (4x4, Brush, Fast Attack, whatever it is called), you can carry as much as possible for the points, but the Engine can be the heavy lifter.

                  If a Tanker carries some service equipment, the question will be "is it a tanker, or a Truck". Typically tankers do not sit on a scene and must be kept in motion to maximize water supply points. So what you claim here may hurt you there. Personally, I would not use a tanker for Combined Service Apparatus. Your effort might be in vain if you use a tanker since some proctors may not view it the same way you do. There are some real sticklers out there. Some things that we know can score points are not documented.

                  Some states do not use ISO, but model their own State Rating Bureau upon many similiar attributes of ISO. There can be differences and flexibility as LA suggests. The State of Missouri does recognize ISO so that is what you should pay attention to.

                  Another benefit of Service Trucks is the response distance. Where Engines get maximum credit inside 1.5 road miles, Service Trucks are measured at 2.5 road miles. In theory, if you have two engines in two stations that overlap some common 1st due area, 1 Service Truck in one of the stations can serve both. In your situation, a Service Truck in both Stations will cover about half of the distance between the two. You can estimate their maximum ranges by using Google Earth and using the measure tools. These points are scored under the Distribution of Companies Criteria.

                  In the real world, we know that Stations are hardly ever spaced 3 miles or closer together. This would not be cost-effective in most large districts, so we see stations located based on three factors: 1) based on population density 2) based upon property values 3) based upon significant risks (i.e. airports, heavy industrial, etc.). In other words, the biggest bang for the buck.

                  For districts that I have managed, and some that I have assisted over the years, I typically try to design the fleet around Service Trucks, Ladders or both. Rule of thumb, one Service/Ladder for every two or three Engines, depending on Station Locations and overlapped first due areas. My most recent situation grouped three stations per Battalion in a cluster: 3 Engines, 1 Reserve Engine & 1 Service/Ladder. Stations in outlying areas usually were assigned a Service, opposed to the most populated or tallest structures getting the ladders. We all know what a Ladder is, but a Service is somewhat different, yet it has been defined by the equipment.

                  The last Service Truck I built/designed was an Engine that had been modified and reclassified for Service Class. This avoided Combined Service Apparatus, and boosted the CREDIT FOR RESERVE PUMPERS and maximized the CREDIT FOR PUMP CAPACITY. This was a better trade off in that situation.

                  But I have also used 1-1/2 ton flatbed trucks (400 to 600 gallons of water and 450 to 600 gpm pumps) that are stuffed to the gills. You don't get points for chrome and wax, so a battled scarred wagon will get the same points as the bright & shiny piece of art. You just need to justify its purpose and specs. Never be afraid to explain what you do to solve the problems. If you don't insist or demonstrate when required, they will not ask. That might cost you enough points to miss a class.


                  I hope this answers your question and helps out.


                  Originally posted by preyn2
                  I have heard that the maximum age for a pump apparatus is 10 years in front line service and 15 years in reserve status, or "you lose credit".
                  You answered your own question sir. ISO does not grade against the age of the apparatus.

                  Since ISO pays attaention to NFPA, the only issue will be if the apparatus is still within the design specifications at the time the apparatus was built. Has the unit been modified, or is the pump really capable of 1250 gpm? This is where the pump test record is important.

                  Maximum Age for Apparatus
                  The Fire Suppression Rating Schedule (FSRS) does not specify any maximum age for fire apparatus. ISO uses NFPA standards to define whether or not the apparatus meets general requirements. In addition, pumper apparatus must pass a pump test. ISO will credit a pumper with its capability (gallons per minute) at a net pump pressure of 150 psi. Aerial apparatus must also pass an annual service test (including a nondestructive test at least every five years).
                  If they are grading a in-house built apparatus, rules are a bit different. Commonly Tankers are home-built more than anything else, followed by Squads/Brush units. This depends on the call load breakdown of the department. What do they use more? Tankers are somewhat universal since you can use them anywhere when you need water, but a Brush Truck may not always go to the house fire. The basic rule of thumb is getting your specs down on paper.

                  Brush Units usually don't get scored during a survey, unless you have a monster pump and tank combo. But in many places, a Fast Attack (or Squad) may have been desgined with 300 gallons of water and a 750 pump. That could score some points for combined pumping capabilities and Service Points. But keep in mind, this might be considered a Heavy Brush on a 1-1/2 ton truck. There is that weight thing to be considered when boondocking.

                  I hope this was helpful.

                  -----------------------------

                  Have a Safe Memorial Day.


                  PK
                  Last edited by PaladinKnight; 05-29-2011, 01:41 AM.
                  HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    How does ISO handle a village contracting its' services out to another village? We are going to be contracting out an engine company in another village. Would our village get credit for this engine? Would the other village get credit for our other two engines and truck?

                    When ISO lists nozzle requirements, do they have to be extras or can they be on the end of our hose loads?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Contact ISO directly to get an answer. We recently asked ISO for guidance, to see if the city fire pumper can leave city limits for responses. Same for fire district apparatus leaving the district for mutual aid.

                      Best to pose the question to ISO directly. Keep a copy of the response for future reference.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        For all of you out there, ISO now has the filed edition of the new FSRS located on their web site... follow this link http://www.isomitigation.com/fsrs/Fi...-Overview.html
                        I will be following up with questions concerning this new monster..... All I can say is we in the fire service (Not me by any stretch of the imagination) have been screaming for ISO to change the way they grade and come into the 20th century.... well, here they come.... Stand by for more

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I have been trying to digest the new FSRS. If I see properly, Automatic aid only now gets credit if the providing department is within 5 miles of the district boundary of the recieving system? Does this mean the stations have to be within 5 miles of the district line?

                          Our areas are 100 to 200 square miles, with one or two stations. This is going to be really tough.

                          And I kept hearing that the new FSRS would include credit of some such for CAFS systems, which I see no mention of foam at all.

                          Still trying to go through this stuff.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by LVFD301 View Post
                            I have been trying to digest the new FSRS. If I see properly, Automatic aid only now gets credit if the providing department is within 5 miles of the district boundary of the recieving system? Does this mean the stations have to be within 5 miles of the district line?

                            That is correct. the aid you are receiving must be within 5 miles of your border... and cover 1/2 of the required distance into your fire district... meaning that it must be built on your border...

                            Our areas are 100 to 200 square miles, with one or two stations. This is going to be really tough.

                            ISO is now requiring a response of 4 people from each fire station in order to receive credit.... This cannot come from other fire stations. I am researching this now to see if this is an effort to force NFPA 1710.

                            And I kept hearing that the new FSRS would include credit of some such for CAFS systems, which I see no mention of foam at all.

                            No foam requirement at all.... the latest edition of NFPA1901 does not require any type of foam, so it is now removed.

                            Still trying to go through this stuff.
                            I too am going through the new requirements and will attempt to get up to speed as soon as I can.. I will post any tidbits that I can to my web site.... www.isoslayer.com

                            Stand by for more....

                            Comment

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