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  • #16
    Can someone elaborate on the scenarios that you have to demonstrate if you are going to do a shuttle survey? We are currently converting an old ambo to our service unit and changing our equipment leoads so any help would be appreciatted. Jeorge

    Comment


    • #17
      If you haven't done so, you need to complete the pre-survey forms:

      http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/5000/ppc5011.html



      Here is the link for Engine Equipment:

      http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3003.html



      Here is the link for Service Equipment:

      http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3005.html



      Here is the Link for Alternative Water Supplies (Tankers):

      http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3011.html

      __________________________________________________ ______________

      Most likely, you will have to perform a few tests:

      Tanker Filling
      The Refill Time is recorded:

      1) Tanker stops at refill location (Tanker begins approach, time begins when Tanker is 200 feet from location)

      2) Draft Apparatus fill Tanker (Refill line(s) are connected, Tanker filled, line(s) disconnected)

      3) Tanker leaves refill location (Time stops when Tanker is 200 feet from the refill location)




      Tanker Dumping (Offload)
      The Offloading time is recorded:

      1) Tanker approaches dump location (Time begins approach, time begins when Tanker is 200 feet from dump location)

      2) Tanker manuevers and dumps load

      3) Tanker pulls away from dump location (Time stops when Tanker is 200 feet from the dump zone)



      Apparatus Pump Test

      1) Engine begins approach to demonstration area (Time begins when Engine is 200 feet from the location)

      2) Crew sets porta-tank, connects draft line and prepares attack hose

      3) Pump Operator engages pump and transitions from booster tank to draft from porta-pond. Time stops when Engine is drafting from porta-pond, (must pump water from porta-pond within 5 minutes)

      __________________________________________________ ______________

      Water Supplies must have 50 year Drought Certificate to be included for consideration.

      __________________________________________________ ______________

      If you wish to contact me by email, I will be glad to visit with you about your equipment and water supply questions:

      [email protected]
      HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

      Comment


      • #18
        ISO Slayer

        You may also contact me at [email protected] or visit my web site at www.isoslayer.com

        Comment


        • #19
          You guys clarify Engine Company Equipment for Nozzles

          2ea 2-1/2" straight stream w/shutoff - pistol combination 2-1/2" nozzle, or pistol combination 1-1/2" nozzle w/adapter for 2-1/2", or playpipe or Zerotorque in either method is equivalent/OK but have to flow more than 200gpm?

          2ea 2-1/2" combination - Any flow rating of 2-1/2" combo or 1-1/2" w/adapter.

          Service co 500gpm - a quick attack montior (Mercury or Blitzfire etc).

          Do you actually need to move stuff around to meet NFPA load list for the inspection. Or just show them what vehicle it is actually on? For example: 6x SCBA/4x spare cylinder on this 1000gpm pumper and 2x SCBA/8x spare cylinders on this 1000gpm pumper and 4x SCBA/no spares on this wildland (Service) truck. SCBA all in perm. brackets, cylinders in wheelwell tubes.

          Comment


          • #20
            This is from the ISO Equilalency List:

            Engine

            2-1/2" straight stream (playpipe) with shutoff

            Portable attack monitor with solid-bore tip

            2-1/2" combination (straight stream & spray) with shutoff
            200-gpm nozzles
            or
            1-3/4" combination vari-nozzle tip nozzles with a 2-1/2" adapter
            or
            Portable attack monitor with fog tip


            Service

            Large spray nozzle (500-gpm minimum)
            500 gpm or larger (may be carried on a pumper)


            I would move two of the SCBA to the Engine that only has 2.

            Check these links for the Equipment Lists.

            Engine: http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3003.html
            Service: http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3005.html
            Equivalency: http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3007.html

            You don't provide enough info on the Wildland (Service) for me to recommend very much. But you should have 6 SCBA with 6 spare cylinders for maximum points. The Service Trucks main purpose is to carry ancillary equipment that support the Engine Company; generator, saw/cutting torch, fan and 6 spare cylinders =84 points of 334. Each SCBA is worth 16 points so you will already be down 128 points without those items. Unless you carry ladders, you will lose another 48 points. Give me some more info so we can see where you are with this unit.

            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            Here is my opinion: I would not risk anything to chance. I have seen proctors that could score either way on SCBA locations. If you don't load 4 on an Engine and you get a guy that is going by the book, you will get no extra points for the extra 2 on the 1st Engine, but lose 32 points on the 2nd Engine. Most will allow you to split them, but it can go either way. With recent changes in the field, I wouldn't tempt it.

            The only deviation that seems somewhat consistant is concerning CSA (Combined Service Apparatus).

            They will give you credit for the Service Truck even if some of the equipment is loaded onto the Engine. But do not overdo it. Again, I wouldn't take too much risk on how you load your equipment. If they see you are trying, that will help.

            -----------------------------------------------------------------

            I just helped complete a survey this week. I watched the proctor not give credit for equipment because it was not on the correct truck. I inquired about that and he reconsidered part of it. The issue was the department had a Wildland truck they classified as a Service. It did not carry ladders or SCBA, but their Engine Carried extra ladders and 10 SCBA. They did get the Service points for 2 SCBA, the fan, saw and tarps on the Engine.

            From my observation, it appears that some of these guys are confused and that there are currently no clear directives on some things. This has been an on-going issue.

            Because of what I will call inconsistancies, I advise depts to go as much by the book as possible. Until we see where the new system goes, there is no point in assuming anything. I have seen some excellent proctors, as well as a few that scare me.

            I hope this answers your questions.
            HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

            Comment


            • #21
              Looking at what would need to add for 100% on service co.

              Only missing a few items. One being a 14' extension ladder.

              Anything in ISO std that require ladders meet NFPA 1931? This being a "for ISO only purchase".

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by neiowa View Post
                Looking at what would need to add for 100% on service co.

                Only missing a few items. One being a 14' extension ladder.

                Anything in ISO std that require ladders meet NFPA 1931? This being a "for ISO only purchase".
                Well, I strongly urge you to consider the implications of using a non-complant NFPA1931 ladder if it is in use and someone gets injured due to failure.

                Having said that, I have seen some proctors that are strict on NFPA compliance on things like attack and supply hose; but never on Suction Hose, hand tools or ladders. I won't say it won't happen because I have probably only seen about 3 to 5% of the current proctors at work.

                You can use a 14' Combination Ladder for credit (about $600 for 5 points), and it may prove useful for attic access, or during overhaul operations.
                HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

                Comment


                • #23
                  ISO Slayer

                  Originally posted by neiowa View Post
                  Looking at what would need to add for 100% on service co.

                  Only missing a few items. One being a 14' extension ladder.

                  Anything in ISO std that require ladders meet NFPA 1931? This being a "for ISO only purchase".
                  In my experience I have assisted fire departments that received credit for a "Little Giant" Ladder. As of the last few ratings I have worked with, departments are no longer receiving credit for this ladder. I have seen the ISO internal paperwork that requires Field Representatives to no longer give credit for these ladders due to the fact that they do not have a label on them stating "Meets NFPA standards". So yes ground ladders are required to meet NFPA Standards... However, it is curious that they do NOT have to be tested as per NFPA standards... Only the aerial device must be tested....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Recently spoke with an ISO person and was told the new schedule would allow full flow of hydrant up to 1500 gpm for the full 1000' without having to have ldh hose. Was also told the new schedule would go into effect 4th Qtr. 2011

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      how many fire depts have an iso class1 rating in the usa

                      In the city of Brockton mass we are an iso class2 fire dept with 6 stations 5 engine co's 3 ladder trucks 1heavy rescue eng. Sqaud A, 9 co's covering 21 sq.miles and95'000 people our main engine co(1)has been out of commission lack of manpower since 1991. we have about 150 ff's an browning out co's here's the question, to get to an iso class 1 dept we need 200 ff's on 10 trucks at 20 men per co. we have manpower for 7 1/2 co's 200 would give us the nfpa 1710 standards to staff 10 trucks,we were shot down on an over ride for 10 cops an 7 ff's it would have cost 25.00 for 17 follow me? 51 ff's would cost 75.00 tax increase ouch! but being an iso class 1 dept would have saved 100.00 on their home owners insurance. so we the fire service would have put 25.00 in their pockets by raising taxes! ever heard of raising taxes to save money? god for bid if we save lives or property!spend the other 25.00 and have a 4th ladder truck and we would break even! wow! we once had 16trucks in 7 stations and 260 ff's it could work in every community in america. cambridge has the only iso class1 dept in mass. 1 out of 351 communitys( 8 are class2)can we list the 30iso usa communitys so i can give it to the mayor, city councilors, state reps ,and senators, the gov ,and our elected officials in wash d.c every community should look at what they need for a class1 dept

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Thomas:

                        I agree with your statement... to a point and I do feel your frustration.

                        There is a good arguement for raising taxes if two things are accomplished:

                        1) Staffing increases along with capability.

                        2) Drastic Insurance reductions offset the tax increase.

                        The public might go along with both goals... but as a Class 2, you're not going to catch the homeowners in a reduction at Class 1. You have already reduced 99% of what you can for them. But the business owners would see a reduction. Would it be enough to justify the tax... I don't know... You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the numbers.

                        But in the current economic situation, elected officials are pushing tax increases to hold on to what they have, not fund anything new. The public's perception of City Hall is it is fat and needs to go on a diet. So you have a very hard sell my friend.

                        To answer your question: According to the latest ISO data... there are 57 ISO PPC 1 Departments in the US.

                        You need to continue to sell your points to the elected officals, but not necessarily to get to Class 1.... but to keep from losing Class 2. If insurance rates go up... lots of people will be looking for a job soon after. Check with the Insurance Providers in your area and query them concerning the affect on premiums on businesses if the Class went to 3. Then tell your bosses that bit of info. You might find it easier to gain what you need, unless they don't understand economic fallout.
                        HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The point i was trying to get across was that only 1 fire dept in mass has an iso rating of class1 and my question was how many were at that goal in the usa you replied 57, there are 351 cities and towns in mass alone and 360 fire depts overall. people need to sell the lower rating towards a class1 vs the tax increase that will be needed.no other dept can offer some type of savings for a tax increase to its residents.we have the chance to use this to our atvantage throughout the usa,not every community needs the same amount of manpower, equipment,or fire houses etc.thats the point i was driving home take care of what you have now is correct an override or a debt exclusion allways comes with a cost but your local insurance company should be able to tell you what your savings would be if you went fom a 9to a5 or a 9to a1 every municipal dept wants more money but we can justify the cost.and if we cut depts with budget cuts it will cost them more through the fire dept. taxes will not decrease an your home and business insurance will increase. we should take a look on how big and small depts got to a class1!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I just helped complete a survey this week. I watched the proctor not give credit for equipment because it was not on the correct truck. I inquired about that and he reconsidered part of it. The issue was the department had a Wildland truck they classified as a Service. It did not carry ladders or SCBA, but their Engine Carried extra ladders and 10 SCBA. They did get the Service points for 2 SCBA, the fan, saw and tarps on the Engine.

                            From my observation, it appears that some of these guys are confused and that there are currently no clear directives on some things. This has been an on-going issue.

                            Because of what I will call inconsistancies, I advise depts to go as much by the book as possible. Until we see where the new system goes, there is no point in assuming anything. I have seen some excellent proctors, as well as a few that scare me.


                            This is the part of both ISO, and it's cousin down here, LA Property Rating that just plain [email protected]@es me off.

                            Departments are often building their trucks around what the rating requires, not what the district requires. This is especially true in less well off departments that spend what they have on buying for the rating and don't have the funds left over to buy the tools and equipment that they actually need to operate in the district. And if they they do, it has to be crammed into the truck because of all the space taken up by the ISO crap that you will never use.

                            By the book, my combo department is required to carry 64 SCBA and 64 spare bottles. That's nonsense. It's the same with the hose jacket, hose clamp and all the other crap required that we don't use and never will.

                            I could continue on this rant, but I'll end here.
                            Train to fight the fires you fight.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                              By the book, my combo department is required to carry 64 SCBA and 64 spare bottles. That's nonsense...
                              Yes. It's nonsense. Then again, I'm not sure where you are coming up with 64 SCBA's needed.

                              Engine, min of 4. Truck, min of 5, from what I remember.
                              "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                                Yes. It's nonsense. Then again, I'm not sure where you are coming up with 64 SCBA's needed.

                                Engine, min of 4. Truck, min of 5, from what I remember.

                                Engine = 4 SCBA and 4 Spares

                                Truck/Service = 6 SCBA and 6 Spares


                                I beleive LA uses the same numbers...

                                But assuming 64 are required...

                                64 is required if you have 16 Engines (4 x 16 = 64)

                                64 is required if you have 10 Engines and 4 Trucks/Service. (4 x 10 = 40 Plus 6 x 4 = 24/ Total 64)



                                If he is referring to riding positions, a 10 man (Engine) cab, this requires 10. The Engine only gets credit for 4. You may be able to apply 6 to a Combined Service Apparatus. But SOP must stipulate what Apparatus is responding.
                                HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

                                Comment

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