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  • #16
    JAD, it depends on how far you get before you get turned down. If the computer kicks you no one is reading the narrative, so there could be nothing wrong with it at all. Even if the app gets kicked by Peer the comments on where your app was lacking are relative to the apps that got awarded. So in fact you could be doing everything right and just be a victim of more apps than money: plain old competition.
    Brian P. Vickers
    www.vickersconsultingservices.com
    Emergency Services Consulting
    Westlake VFD - Houston, TX
    Proud Member IACOJ - Redneck Division

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    • #17
      Just an FYI. We didn't list any equipment to be included on the tanker to make it functional for our department. IF IT ISN'T LISTED IN NFPA 1901 THEN YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR IT!!!!

      It causes a LOT more paperwork to ammend it after the fact!

      Comment


      • #18
        Here is the situation

        We are a small rural department, we are in bad need of a pumper/tanker (500gpm/1800 tank). Our current tanker is a transformed homemade 1977 International. It currently has well over 100,000 miles on it and has pretty much seen its better days. We do not want to decommision this truck completly due to from what we have heard it is a pain in the butt to write the AFG if you are starting from ground up on a truck (true or false)???...
        The tank leaks about 200 gallons a day so its pretty much worthless. I am curious in what the odds are of getting this truck replaced through the AFG. Our department has recieved an AFG award in 2005 for personal protective equipment.
        We have a very limited budget and cannot be locally funded.
        I am open for comments on this.

        Comment


        • #19
          Firegod101 - I vote send it to scrap

          I am no expert on this AFG stuff, but we had the same tanker situation in 2004 and we removed the truck from service and applied with no tanker on the roster. Awarded round 9. I believe having no tanker (priority vehicle for rural) that you should have priority over everybody with a truck of any age, qty. of trucks, or condition. As long as you don't make any glaring errors in the application or narrative, I can't see how you couldn't get awarded. Your welcome to our narrative, same exact scenario. Since you wrote one succesful grant already, you shouldn't have a problem with the application. As I suggest above, improve your odds, improve your safety and don't prolong this truck on life support. I believe starting from ground up, no tanker, has no negative impact on the computer scoring, it should give you top priority if anything. The only difference is checking a few different boxes on your fleet and their age. We wrote in the narrative about having a tanker before, how bad it was and having to get rid of it for safety. Their is nothing more important in the fire service then adequate water supply.

          Comment


          • #20
            We lost our only tanker to a wreck just before we sent in our '05 application. The past years we had applied for an engine (only had one, a '74) without any luck. When we switched gears to a pumper/tanker and applied some tricks learned here and elsewhere, we got a round 3 award. I made sure I noted in the narrative we had no means to supply water in the rural setting.

            Comment


            • #21
              If you have determined through a needs assessment that a new tanker is the top priority for your department (all other needs are met PPE etc.), then go for it. Currently, 1 in 8 applications is funded for vehicles. Overall chances will be determined by the number of departments applying etc. Realize that vehicle grants are already extremely competitive and will become more so as departments move from completing PPE purchases and start looking at vehicles.

              The issue with “homemade” tankers is that they are hauling water, tools etc. that they were not originally designed for, creating a serious safety issue. These vehicles tend to be overweight, under sized braking systems etc. The key to whether a tanker is decommissioned or not is its roadworthiness. If you are not sure have it inspected (state road team etc.). It’s a better argument that the unsafe vehicle was taken out of service to protect the firefighters than it is to keep it in service due to water supply issues. Mutual aid can assist with water supply, which could lead to an additional argument for a new tanker. Mutual aid tankers are XX miles away and take a long time to arrive.

              Comment


              • #22
                deleted duplicate message
                Last edited by onebugle; 01-07-2007, 10:09 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Firegod101,

                  Don't get discurraged. We had a tanker very simular to yours and was turned down for 2 years. We improved our grant knowledge and reapplied this year and was awarded in first round. Give me your email address and I will send you some info.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I'm in Sioux Falls

                    Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                    We lost our only tanker to a wreck just before we sent in our '05 application. The past years we had applied for an engine (only had one, a '74) without any luck. When we switched gears to a pumper/tanker and applied some tricks learned here and elsewhere, we got a round 3 award. I made sure I noted in the narrative we had no means to supply water in the rural setting.
                    Catch22 - I'm up in Sioux Falls and will get to do a final inspection on our pumper-tanker tomorrow.

                    I can't believe how many chassis they have at the plant waiting to be built.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mitchkrat View Post
                      Catch22 - I'm up in Sioux Falls and will get to do a final inspection on our pumper-tanker tomorrow.

                      I can't believe how many chassis they have at the plant waiting to be built.
                      They've got quite the collection, don't they! I'm not sure if that's a good thing, or bad, though.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Needs Assesment

                        An in house needs assesment has been conducted, we have all newer air packs and PPE. All of our other pieces of apparatus are in good shape. After reading the posts we will probably be taking the current tanker out of service.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by onebugle View Post

                          The issue with “homemade” tankers is that they are hauling water, tools etc. that they were not originally designed for, creating a serious safety issue. These vehicles tend to be overweight, under sized braking systems etc. The key to whether a tanker is decommissioned or not is its roadworthiness. If you are not sure have it inspected (state road team etc.). It’s a better argument that the unsafe vehicle was taken out of service to protect the firefighters than it is to keep it in service due to water supply issues. Mutual aid can assist with water supply, which could lead to an additional argument for a new tanker. Mutual aid tankers are XX miles away and take a long time to arrive.
                          Apples, bananas, and kiwis there. None the less. In a microfireworld theory may work. Unless your neighbors home is burning an there is no water.

                          Rural America uses the tankers they have (build) as MUST have water. Fund raise for 10 years to buy a 20yr old pumper (if a "rich" community maybe buy a new beer budget pumper every 30yrs). Then scrape together a few $k to create a tanker to haul water. No fire hydrants in the FD. Call this town Muddville. The EastUndershirt FD is located 10mi to the East (primary mutual aid partner) - same deal. Smithville, 15mi West - same deal. Roosterville, 18mi North - same. Smedlap 12mi South - same. Other towns/cities in the area (further distant) - same. Eventually you come to a community of a few thousand that buys new equipment on some replacement schedule (dictated by the relative wealth of the city) and has fire hydrants. They have one "real" tanker to work the fringes of the city and wildland fires but depend on the RURAL communities to bring the tankers for real fires in their rural area.

                          Avg (homemade) tanker in these Rural FD is only 1800gal (or whatever was inexpensive to obtain). All of these FD get together (within 20-30min) and can move 350gpm from available water sources.

                          Now how many of these POS homebuilt tankers are we going to decommission? All Five? How many is FEMA going to replace? Expect any fires during this period?

                          My FD applied for tanker 2006 and flushed (not surprised). I wrote what I think was a pretty good app. Primary sell point was we would retire our homebuilt nonNFPA tanker with a "safe" piece of equipment = flushed (not surprised). Rural Dept = limited # calls so low payback = no joy in Muddville. Our current tanker (former milktruck) at 2600gal is the largest in 30mi (and the smallest community in that territory. We scraped up enough $ to get a "real" chassis and we get called to all "real" fires for mutual aid becasue we show up with "real" water.

                          Rural America still needs tankers, today and next year. And real tankers not 1500-1800gal toys. FEMA is not going to fund the tanker needs of Rural America.

                          Playing tactical "games" with retiring equipment in order to show "need"? That's got some liability in it's self. Particularily personal conscience when Joe's house in on fire.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Playing tactical "games" with retiring equipment in order to show "need"?

                            Neiowa - you make a number of excellent points, nothing more important then water in my mind when Joe's house is burning, other then the life safety of me and my responding personnel. Putting people at risk with unsafe vehicles doesn't sound like a tactical decision either? When faced with no other options, we have to make do and take risks. The fire doesn't care if it hits the best supplied company in the world or Muddville, it still burns up and out.

                            If the tankers are in that bad of shape anyways, they will retire themselves soon enough or you will waste every cent you have trying to keep them going. Relying on unreliable equipment also gives you false hope and also puts Joe at risk. Sooner or later the municipality is going to have to come up with a plan if the DHS god doesn't hit. Their is no greater need then those with nothing, whether it be from the municipality paying or the DHS god.

                            This is a competition and those rural dept's with no tanker will always outscore everybody with a tanker of any age or condition, computer or peer. Nothing is not a 100% guarantee to get a grant, but a gamble at substantially improving your odds and scoring a big reward.

                            If the first due company can't put the fire out with the toy water tankers they have, chances are everybody is coming anyways. Might as well call them first and fast, they want to come anyways. More automatic calls, better odds with the DHS god.

                            Either way Joe's house is still burning and you still need a tanker.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by neiowa View Post
                              Rural America still needs tankers, today and next year. And real tankers not 1500-1800gal toys. FEMA is not going to fund the tanker needs of Rural America.

                              Playing tactical "games" with retiring equipment in order to show "need"? That's got some liability in it's self. Particularily personal conscience when Joe's house in on fire.
                              BINGO!

                              DITTO, and same situation here. Two home-made tankers in the fleet... Mutual Aid? umm...there really isn't any This is RURAL! (read sparsly populated) America! Town A to the north is 35+ miles, town B to the east 35+ miles, town C to the south ... umm there isn't one and then town D to the west another 35+ miles. We have NO timely water delivery mutual aid support available. We also have no hydrants in the rural area that are capable of providing any kind of flow rate. We don't have the resources (population and taxable valuation) to support the purchase of manufactured apparatus. I don't think some people really understand the logistics of providing suppression for 400+ square miles of rural geography.
                              Rick Gustad - Chief
                              Platte Volunteer Fire Department
                              www.plattevfd.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Oh yeah, forgot to mention, the little bit of mutual aid support that is available ... they are home-made as well, and the departments past them ... home-made again.
                                Rick Gustad - Chief
                                Platte Volunteer Fire Department
                                www.plattevfd.com

                                Comment

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