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Comm Question

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  • Comm Question

    Can anyone refer me to where it discusses 700 over 800 mhz comm projects in AFG NOFO?
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  • #2
    I don't think it's in the NOFO. You have to follow the link on page 39 for P-25 compliance. After following a series of links, I found this:

    Last Updated: 11/25/2018 8:45:20 PM

    Previous SEL Number: 06CP-01-PORT

    Description: Individual/portable radio transceivers.

    ImportantFeatures: Digital or analog capable.
    Encryption capability.
    Supports 12.5KHz channels (6.25KHz channels are becoming available).
    Supports conventional or trunked systems.
    Project 25 compatible (136-512, 800 MHz).
    Project 25 required within 700MHz.
    Optional waterproofing to allow use after complete immersion.
    Can be intrinsically safe.
    Multi-band, GPS/GLONASS, Bluetooth, Over The Air Reprogramming/rekeying (OTAR). TDMA Phase 2, FDMA Phase 1. Wifi (802.11 B/G/N)

    Operating Considerations: See 47 CFR 90 FCC for applicable standard.
    Portable radios may not be advisable in EOD operations - consider hard-line or other solutions.

    Consider waterproof models for use in water operations/rescue environments, and ruggedized modes such as those built to MILSPEC standards. Further recommend an IP 56 rating under ANSI /IEC 60529.
    Consider power options (rechargeable batteries versus clamshell versus alkaline).
    Consider carrying strategy for individuals - belt holder, clip, etc.
    Consider FIPS compliance if planning to interface with Federal Government resources.
    Check compatibility of encryption features - not all encryption schemes are compatible. Multiple options are available, including ADP, AES, DES, DES-XL, DES-OFB, DVPXL; WIFI security: WPA2 WPA WEP. However, less expensive approaches such as ADP will not meet Federal grant requirements for compliance with the P25/AES standard. Also, DES and its variants are now considered to be insecure for many applications. In recent years, DES has been superseded by the Advanced Encryption Standard (AES), and DES has been withdrawn as a standard by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (formerly the National Bureau of Standards). For encrypted interoperability, AES encryption is the only encryption that meets the P25 type 3 encryption standards for interoperability communications.
    When implementing encryption, consider encryption key management, including encryption key generation, management, and rotation.

    Training Requirements: Core Training: Per Manufacturer's Specifications
    Initial Training: Minimal (<1 day)
    Sustainment Training: Minimal (<1 day)

    Mandatory Standards:

    Applicable Standards and References:

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for the information.

      Kurt Bradley
      Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
      " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

      Comment


      • #4
        Kurt, that seems to be contrary to previous is it not? I thought P-25 800 was the only acceptable thing.
        BB

        Comment


        • #5
          In past NOFO's it specifically prohibited 700mhz but I believe that's since been changed since FirstNet is more stabilized on what frequencies they're using now.
          Brian P. Vickers
          CEO - Vickers Consulting Services, Inc
          FH.com/Firehouse Mag Contributor
          www.helpmewithgrants.com
          www.facebook.com/vcsinc

          Comment


          • #6
            700 is P25 only in use, so it is easy to mandate it to P25 by FEMA. Heavy use in metro areas, and totally independent of Firstnet.

            Comment


            • #7
              BB3939, don't trust what I posted. Kurt and Brian are way more knowledgeable than I am. I was pointing out Kurt was right, it's not in the NOFO. On top of that you have part of a guessing game to find the right link to the standards. My fire company's thinking about a comm grant and was hoping one of them could point me in the right direction on the standards.

              Comment


              • #8
                I thought FirstNet was in 700range hence the blocking of apps for it initially. Too many things spinning at once, trying to remember old NOFOs is a challenge right about now...
                Brian P. Vickers
                CEO - Vickers Consulting Services, Inc
                FH.com/Firehouse Mag Contributor
                www.helpmewithgrants.com
                www.facebook.com/vcsinc

                Comment


                • #9
                  Our county adopted a DTRS (Digital Trunked Radio System) in the early to mid 1990's which was before the P-25 standard. The Motorola DTRS system didn't communicate with the Erickson DTRS system. This brought about the mandated P-25 standards. Originally the tower sites were all 800 band. Since then the State of Colorado adopted DTRS statewide and the two systems were merged. Due to increases in the number of individual radios and users on the system, the 800 spectrum became limited in the number of frequency pairs available for trunking. As the system grew to cover dead spots, the newer towers were of the 700 band as frequency pairs for talk groups were more readily available. All of our radios are DTRS P-25 compatible to operate over both the 700 and 800 bands. The DTRS system seamlessly moves between the 700 and 800 bands and as a end user, you never know whether you are using 700 or 800 unless you determine which tower you are connected to and which band the tower uses. A Net-First Zone has recently been added to our radios.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The most important thing to remember is that even though the radio is P-25 compatible, your purchase MUST include software (at additional cost) that makes the radio compatible with the DTRS system as provided by the local, regional or state network provider. You can buy used P-25 compatible radios on eBay. But if you don't know what specific radio software is REQUIRED on your local system (Flash Code), you could end up spending hundreds of dollars (or thousands) to purchase the software for that specific radio. Make sure you budget for the necessary software by coordinating with your local radio network system provider. Authorized radio dealer/representatives should also be able to assist you in providing quotes that include appropriate software for your local network features. Just remember that DTRS radios are nothing more than a computer. The P-25 standards provide what might be considered an operating system. But you still have to buy the application software to run the radio on your local network.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I knew I had seen something in years past about 700 Mhz but it is my understanding now that 700 or 800 are acceptable.
                      Kurt Bradley
                      Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
                      " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BC79er View Post
                        I thought FirstNet was in 700range hence the blocking of apps for it initially. Too many things spinning at once, trying to remember old NOFOs is a challenge right about now...
                        https://www.fcc.gov/700-mhz-public-s...wband-spectrum

                        Firstnet is occupying a portion of the 700 mhz band, but for digital BROADBAND only. No voice, no P25, just data. Of course, if you choose to use VoIP type service, or LTE voice, that is fine, but no narrowband voice like we are all used to.

                        There are about 960 repeater pairs for P25 operation on the 700 Mhz band, and then the 10 Mhz that is allocated for Firstnet.

                        No one is using narrowband voice on the Firstnet allocation, and the APX and XTS radios will not tune there.
                        Last edited by LVFD301; 07-05-2019, 08:54 PM. Reason: Because I wanted to.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AsstChief132 View Post
                          A Net-First Zone has recently been added to our radios.
                          What is a Net-First zone?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BC79er View Post
                            I thought FirstNet was in 700range hence the blocking of apps for it initially. Too many things spinning at once, trying to remember old NOFOs is a challenge right about now...
                            You are not fooling anyone with that line. You work? (would you like a new battery with that?)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This information may be a little dated, but it worked for me with my 2016 AFG Grant for 700 MHz radios. The AFG Office was initially going to deny the portion of the grant that dealt with funds for 700 MHz radios in which they were referencing "FEMA Grant Programs Directorate Information Bulletin, No. 386, June 15, 2012". However, with some research, I was able to get clarification on the issue from a previous grantee (who went through the same argument with the Grants Office). He said to specifically reference the second to last paragraph on page 4, which is italicized, that dictates that the constraints placed on grant funding are applicable only to broadband communication projects. The majority of users in the 700 MHz range operate in the narrowbands, not the broadbands. After sending that information to the Grants Office, and that we were going to only be operating in the narrowbands, the project was approved.

                              As I said earlier, this information is a little dated, and I haven't researched the issue since then, so I don't know if things have changed. If someone has newer information that contradicts this dated information, please let me know so that I'm not giving out bad information.

                              I have attached the Directorate to this entry - I hope it helps.

                              FEMA 700 MHz Directorate No 386 June 15 2012.pdf

                              Comment

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