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  • Apparatus application question

    My department is looking to consolidate our 23yo engine/tanker and our 32yo heavy rescue into 1 new rescue pumper. We also have a 13yo engine/tanker, 7yo brush truck, and 17yo dually pick up. We do not have the manpower to justify the 5 trucks we have. Also the 23yo engine/tanker is manual shift and intimidates many of the members we have.

    So is my thinking correct that when i am answering questions about the vehicle being replaced I should limit the info provided to the info pertaining to the 23yo engine/tanker? And then narrate the fact we wish to replace both trucks with one unit?

  • #2
    just realized i put this in the wrong forum. can a mod please move this to the grant forum? please and thanks

    Comment


    • #3
      my thoughts :::
      Your 2001 engine will knock you out of contention , even though you are wanting to replace much older units.

      Personally it makes sense to me to replace 2 older trucks with a new combination unit, but not using the scoring matrix for AFG

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by islandfire03 View Post
        my thoughts :::
        Your 2001 engine will knock you out of contention , even though you are wanting to replace much older units.

        Personally it makes sense to me to replace 2 older trucks with a new combination unit, but not using the scoring matrix for AFG
        Yeah that is my biggest fear. My personal opinion is they spec'd the 2001 ETA wrong in the first place. Not just for AFG reasons. It's basically a tanker but with too much extra money spent on a bigger pump. It's a 3 man commercial cab, 2000 gallon elliptical tank with side and rear dumps. They put the 1500gpm pump in it thinking they could use it as their second ETA but there is only 4 small low side compartments, no ladders, no scba, and basically no supply line (there is some 2.5 tossed up in a large crosslay area but it can only be deployed by manually pulling it off. You could never to a hose lay)

        I know I will have to narrate the hell out of that in the narratives to give me any kind of change but my concern is making it past the computer. Which is why I ask if I should add all the data for the ETA and the Rescue together or if I should just enter the ETA data and again narrate the rescue data in...

        Comment


        • #5
          Apparatus Grant Criteria

          Vehicle grants have been awarded to our Department in 2010 and 2013. I have not read the vehicle grant application for 2014, but my experience is that you have to meet certain criteria to pass the computer evaluation to get to the peer review.

          That criteria includes:

          Average age all apparatus (unknown).
          Newest apparatus in the class of the apparatus requested.
          Operating budget, number and type of calls.
          These along with other general criteria affect your computer score.

          Then you must be able to answer "YES" to one or both of the following:

          Is the vehicle you are replacing a converted vehicle not originally designed for its current use?
          (This could be a water truck that was converted to a tanker, or a pickup body that
          was modified to be a brush truck but not NFPA compliant at the time of construction, etc.)

          Does the vehicle you are replacing have an open cab configuration ?
          (I assume that this means no roof or open jump seats)

          I cannot speak to the 2014 applications, but I believe if you could not answer YES to at least
          one of the above questions, your chances of passing the computer review are nil.

          In addition there are some obvious questions.

          If awarded, will you permanently remove this substandard vehicle from service? (YES)

          How long have you owned the vehicle you are replacing? (You probably should have owned
          the vehicle since it was new or 15-20 years. They likely will not replace a vehicle that you
          bought 5 years ago.)

          If you can't pass the computer review, no one will read your application to evaluate the reasons
          for your request including replacing more than one vehicle or special circumstances that impact
          your need.

          Comment


          • #6
            Your 2001 engine may not put you out of contention. In 2010 we received a grant for an Interface Engine, even though
            we had an almost identical 2005 and 2007 Interface Engines. The key was that we were replacing a 1986 pickup truck that
            was not built as a initial attack apparatus to NFPA recommendations. Thus we could answer that it was being used for a purpose
            other than which it was originally intended.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by AsstChief132 View Post
              Vehicle grants have been awarded to our Department in 2010 and 2013. I have not read the vehicle grant application for 2014, but my experience is that you have to meet certain criteria to pass the computer evaluation to get to the peer review.

              That criteria includes:

              Average age all apparatus (unknown).
              Newest apparatus in the class of the apparatus requested.
              Operating budget, number and type of calls.
              These along with other general criteria affect your computer score.

              Then you must be able to answer "YES" to one or both of the following:

              Is the vehicle you are replacing a converted vehicle not originally designed for its current use?
              (This could be a water truck that was converted to a tanker, or a pickup body that
              was modified to be a brush truck but not NFPA compliant at the time of construction, etc.)

              Does the vehicle you are replacing have an open cab configuration ?
              (I assume that this means no roof or open jump seats)

              I cannot speak to the 2014 applications, but I believe if you could not answer YES to at least
              one of the above questions, your chances of passing the computer review are nil.

              In addition there are some obvious questions.

              If awarded, will you permanently remove this substandard vehicle from service? (YES)

              How long have you owned the vehicle you are replacing? (You probably should have owned
              the vehicle since it was new or 15-20 years. They likely will not replace a vehicle that you
              bought 5 years ago.)

              If you can't pass the computer review, no one will read your application to evaluate the reasons
              for your request including replacing more than one vehicle or special circumstances that impact
              your need.

              The ETA is a 2 man Ford f9000 commercial cab but the rescue is a 5 man Hahn custom cab with 2 open jump seats. Both trucks would be removed by us from service but I don't see why another department couldn't benefit from them. I've seen way worse on the road. It's mostly that they don't meet our departments needs anymore. Could we trade them in to the dealer we buy the new truck from? I'm pretty sure that we bought the ETA new in 1991 but I think the 1982 rescue was bought about 8 years ago.

              Comment


              • #8
                Apparatus to be Replaced !

                The Rescue Truck is a likely candidate to win a grant to replace it. But you must consider if AFG lists a Rescue Truck as a top priority for your department size. If you are a rural department with a small population, the top priorities do not list a Rescue Truck ( at least for last year). Verify that you are asking for a vehicle that is a top priority. The other consideration is that I don't how long the computer analysis requires for length of ownership, but it is a question on the application.

                The application asks for the VIN for the vehicle to be replaced. With the VIN, FEMA can easily figure out how long you have owned the vehicle.

                FEMA requires that you certify that the apparatus to be replaced is not to be used as an emergency vehicle. That is it has to be sold, or disposed of, to someone who is going to use it for other than fire apparatus. We have required that the entity that purchased our old (replaced) vehicle signs an affidavit that the vehicle will not be used as an emergency vehicle. Obviously what they do with it is then their obligation and not yours. We did have an audit by the Regional FEMA including a request for documentation as to where the replaced vehicle went.

                It looks as though you are in a "Catch 22". Replacement of the Rescue Truck would likely be a higher scoring application than the engine/tanker except for the fact that you were not the original owner, and it may not be a "high priority" for your population base. You need to verify what vehicles have a high priority for your department in the 2014 AFG Guidance documents. As for the engine/tanker, it doesn't sound as if it would pass the computer review.

                Join the club. A lot of departments have a genuine need, but they aren't dealt the right cards when it comes to AFG. You have to learn the rules and make sure you are asking for things that AFG is granting.

                Then again, if you don't apply, you have zero chance of receiving a grant.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you do apply for a vehicle grant, an engine would almost always be an AFG priority for any department. So you might try replacing the rescue with an engine. An engine that has a lot of rescue gear. Does the Rescue have any fire suppression capability ?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AsstChief132 View Post
                    If you do apply for a vehicle grant, an engine would almost always be an AFG priority for any department. So you might try replacing the rescue with an engine. An engine that has a lot of rescue gear. Does the Rescue have any fire suppression capability ?
                    Our current rescue does not. And right now it barely has any equipment on it because we don't have the manpower to get it off the floor. It went to 1 of our 40 calls last year. And since the number of people in the department who can drive the first due ETA has diminished because people don't drive stick anymore the ETA only went to 11 of our 40 calls and it should be first due to all calls.

                    So I could request a rescue pumper as a replacement for the rescue to get passed the computer? And then add to my narrative that I will also be replacing the 23yo ETA, is that what you are saying?

                    Unfortunately for the rural departments a rescue is a medium priority in the 2014 FOA.
                    Last edited by Disp2030; 11-17-2014, 10:22 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      AFG Application

                      I would apply for an Engine. How much water, what size pump, and how much rescue gear is up to you. You are asking for a "High Priority" vehicle. You will be replacing an unsafe 1982 Hahn with an open cab. Fill out the application honestly and truthfully.

                      In your narrative, you can choose to include replacing the 1991 E/T or not depending upon how you structure your narrative, how you perceive your needs and how you express those needs. Your only commitment to FEMA is to sell/dispose of the 1982 Hahn.

                      Everyone that is capable of driving the ET (Class 8 or whatever) should be trained to safely drive it to an incident, even if it is at twenty miles per hour. Everyone that is capable should be trained to safely drive the Hahn.

                      You may need to recruit some Chauffeurs (as they are called in New York) to do nothing but drive the Hahn to incidents. At least next year the Hahn's response numbers would be reasonable.

                      The bottom line is that you are requesting funding for an Engine to replace an unsafe, open cab, 1982 Hahn apparatus. Including discussion of the 1991 ET in the narrative is like adding a little extra frosting on the cake, but your focus should be on replacing a 1982, unsafe, open cab apparatus.

                      Don't give up hope. In 2006, our 40 member department (around 175 calls a year, 70% medical with a population of about 2,500) set out to replace our aging apparatus, primarily with the help of grants. Since 2007 we have received over $ 1,100,000.00 in grant money. We have purchased two CAF Interface Engines, replaced all our VHF radios, purchased DTRS 800 radios, replaced almost all of our rescue gear, purchased 4 additional AED's, an ATV and EMS trailer, an Attack/Resupply AR-AFFF Foam Trailer; and we have an CAF Interface Engine/Rescue and two CAF Brush Trucks scheduled for delivery in the spring. Only two AFG grants contributed to the total amount, the rest were State and PILT related grants. You simply have to commit to finding funding sources and going after them. You won't get awarded every grant you write, we didn't. But you have to give it your best shot.

                      Good Luck.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        All those grants sound like West Douglas FPD.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AsstChief132 View Post
                          I would apply for an Engine. How much water, what size pump, and how much rescue gear is up to you. You are asking for a "High Priority" vehicle. You will be replacing an unsafe 1982 Hahn with an open cab. Fill out the application honestly and truthfully.
                          The bottom line is that you are requesting funding for an Engine to replace an unsafe, open cab, 1982 Hahn apparatus. Including discussion of the 1991 ET in the narrative is like adding a little extra frosting on the cake, but your focus should be on replacing a 1982, unsafe, open cab apparatus.

                          Good Luck.
                          only problem with your theory is the "unsafe" hahn is a heavy rescue not an engine, so you are still going to have a much newer engine in that category with the 1991 which will skew the computer scoring.
                          focusing on replacing the rescue will not make the score any better in the engine category
                          the numbers are what they are and you can't change them.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by islandfire03 View Post
                            you are still going to have a much newer engine in that category with the 1991 which will skew the computer scoring.
                            Unfortunately, not this year. The overall computer scoring is going to be very skewed since there is no weighted class age as part of the score.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Age of Apparatus

                              Again, I cannot speak to the algorisms for this years computer evaluation, but in 2010 we were awarded a grant for a new Interface Engine.

                              The two questions asked relative to apparatus age were:

                              "What is the newest (age) vehicle you currently own in the class you are purchasing?" Answer: 3 years

                              "How old is the oldest (age) vehicle you own in the class you are purchasing?" Answer 24 years

                              Thus, we were granted a Interface Engine even though our newest Interface Engine was 3 years old. The computer analysis is usually not black or white but uses many criteria. The 1991 engine may not necessarily skew the computer scoring, but the older Hahn may add to the scoring.

                              Apparently a number of criteria in the computer scoring have changed (for the better). You have to truthfully answer the questions (one department has been asked to return the grant after purchase due to untruthful information), and make the best case you can in your narrative.

                              Comment

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