SCBA Grant

[volunteer247]

I know this has been asked/covered before, so i apologize ahead of time.
I am currently working on writing a grant for some new SCBA, as the ones we have are 20+ years old. We have 20 FF, with seating for 10. I am going for 10 units with an extra bottle for each, and a RIT pack. I am leaning on MSA and Scott as the 2 we would pick from. Im just wondering if there is anything i should be considering when looking at options? We are a small city/rural volunteer dept. Thanks in advance, this site is an amazing place and more info than a guy can sift through.

[neiowa]

Don't just look at seated positions. Also look at ISO/NFPA standard for each apparatus you have on hand. Request accordingly.

As I recall Pumper 4ea, Service 6ea, tanker/other 2ea

Not uncommon you'll have one or more SCBA in for service and or a couple FF gone to training and pretty soon at times you don't have 10 on hand.

[CVFD9LT]

We only have 10 interior certified firefighters but we applied and received 15 new scba just for what was posted above training // servicing and so forth we also bought 5 more cylinders than we needed for when we send out others for hydro testing. I would suggest to buy whatever best suits your departments needs be it scott msa drager sperian also look into interoperability with mutual aid companies also as that will be a big plus to get the grant with so if all the mutual aid co's you work with use brand x put that in the grant that you want to buy brand x for interoperability and rit not just that your current units are old and need replaced.

[SLY4420]

if all the mutual aid co's you work with use brand x put that in the grant that you want to buy brand x for interoperability and rit not just that your current units are old and need replaced.

Not a good idea to mention brand names in any narrative. SCBA is SCBA these days. That's like saying we're buying the same brand of hose so it hooks together easier.

[CVFD9LT]

Yes i agree i was just using that to help better understand what i was trying to say i guess i should have stated that at the end of my reply

[FyredUp]

IF, and it is a BIG IF, you are requesting a specific brand because your neighbors all use it, then I see mentioning a brand name as a plus. INTEROPERABILITY is and always has been a buzz word with the FEMA fire grants. If you all have the same brand, in the same psi, whether 2216 or 4500, bottles can be shared at an incident. Hence INTEROPERABILITY!!

[neiowa]

Yes i agree i was just using that to help better understand what i was trying to say i guess i should have stated that at the end of my reply

You also do not have to buy brand X, Y, or Z. Just because someone 3 states away is importing them and wants "your" grantbucks at a low ball price.

Write you spec and as soon as you get your questions/1099 send them out to the dealers you WANT bids from. For SCBA this would be Scott and MSA (as you mentioned), and, if for some reason of your own, to brand X or Y or Z. You should be able to get at least 2 Scott bids (MES and local distributor). Talk to dealer you WANT to buy from FIRST so THEY get the manufacturer price concession. By WANT I mean the dealer that will treat your FD well long term, not the guy that will buy you scotch at XMAS.

I'd include in bid spec that dealer is REQUIRED, no exceptions, to have mobile service IN YOUR STATION to perform maintenance and annual function test (you're buying into function testing if you accept the grant $). That will typically eliminate MES as a bidder. You likely can get 1st function test throw in for free if in discussions you suggest such to salesman. Post sale service is more critial with SCBA that just about anything in the fire service. Cheapest is not least expensive and AFG does NOT require you to buy cheap. Just document what/why you selected ______.

[ktb9780]

IF, and it is a BIG IF, you are requesting a specific brand because your neighbors all use it, then I see mentioning a brand name as a plus. INTEROPERABILITY is and always has been a buzz word with the FEMA fire grants. If you all have the same brand, in the same psi, whether 2216 or 4500, bottles can be shared at an incident. Hence INTEROPERABILITY!!

You are confusing the grant application process at review and the procurement bid process after award.As mentioned above stating a brand name can imply that you have already made up your mind about what you are going to buy and that you will in fact violate the procurement integrity issue. Not a good thing!

[FyredUp]

You are confusing the grant application process at review and the procurement bid process after award.As mentioned above stating a brand name can imply that you have already made up your mind about what you are going to buy and that you will in fact violate the procurement integrity issue. Not a good thing!

How can you claim interoperability when the fact is with SCBA NOTHING is supposed to be used other than the brand name components, including air cylinders? If everyone else in your area is using brand X and you want interoperability you would have to buy that specific brand.

Roll your eyes all you want. I believe this is a question I would call and ask the help desk while writing my grant.

[ktb9780]

How can you claim interoperability when the fact is with SCBA NOTHING is supposed to be used other than the brand name components, including air cylinders? If everyone else in your area is using brand X and you want interoperability you would have to buy that specific brand.

Roll your eyes all you want. I believe this is a question I would call and ask the help desk while writing my grant.

Hold your horses guy, not toally disagreeing with you here and nobody has suggested that you not speak to Interoberability, I recommend that as a matter of fact.

What many of us are only saying is not to mention brand names. You can still address increased interoperability by psi rating, standardization of training, heads up display, accountability functions, RIT connections etc. without specifically saying a brand name.Believe what you want but, sole source providing or submitting bids with properietary specifications, which is what you are referring to, is frowned upon highly by all Federal grant programs. Per AFG PG:

Sole-source purchasing is not an acceptable procurement method except in unusual circumstances. Grantees who fail to adhere to their own procurement policy or otherwise fail to fully “compete” any transaction involving Federal funds may find that their expenditures will be questioned and subsequently disallowed.

Specifications developed for solicitations shall clearly set forth all requirements that the bidder shall fulfill in order for the bid or offer to be evaluated by the recipient. However, those specifications may not be so narrowly constructed or contain features which unduly conflicts of interest. Grantees shall, on request, make available to DHS, pre-award review and procurement documents, such as request for proposals or invitations for bids, independent cost estimates, etc., if a) the procurement specifies a "brand name" product, or b) the proposed award is to be awarded to other than the apparent low bidder under a sealed bid process. Grantees found to be using proprietary specifications may find that their expenditures will be questioned and subsequently disallowed

[volunteer247]

Hey now boys, dont make me turn the 1 1/2" on ya! When I say that I am leaning on MSA or Scott, is simply because, A: I know neighboring depts that have both, have seen them, checked them out and believe each to be of High quality standards, and B: those are the 2 dealers nearby( 150 mile radius), while one is a rep we have done business with in the past and has treated us well (he is on a dept as well and understands our concerns and needs), but that in itself does not mean he will get the $$ either. I do not plan to name the manufacturer we plan to use in my application. I plan to state what i believe is the need to update the packs, with interoperability as a concern. IF we are lucky enough to be awarded the grant, then each rep will have their shot at a presentation.
My original question was if there is anything i should be concerned with as far as options, like the HUD, VAS, etc. Basically....what is worth it and what isnt. I have to keep in mind we will have to fund the 5% match of $60-70k. While that isnt such a deciding factor, i still want to show that im not just goin for all the bells and whistles without regard to the $$, if that makes sense.\

Thanks for all the input Guys!

[SLY4420]

The need to replace the packs on interoperability alone isn't going to be sufficient enough justification. The condition of your current SCBA is the primary concern, and if they are compatable with your neighbors, that's a bonus.

I wouldn't focus any of the grant on manufacturers, your neighbors, or anything of the like. State your problem, focus on the solution to YOUR needs, and when it comes time to purchase, you can use the interoperability as justification for your brand selection.

[islandfire03]

One more little detail to add:
The Feds are allowing $5250.00 per pack with spare cylinder.
So spec all the options you want to pay for above that limit.

You can get bids as high as $6500.00 per unit

[ktb9780]

Hey now boys, dont make me turn the 1 1/2" on ya! When I say that I am leaning on MSA or Scott, is simply because, A: I know neighboring depts that have both, have seen them, checked them out and believe each to be of High quality standards, and B: those are the 2 dealers nearby( 150 mile radius), while one is a rep we have done business with in the past and has treated us well (he is on a dept as well and understands our concerns and needs), but that in itself does not mean he will get the $$ either. I do not plan to name the manufacturer we plan to use in my application. I plan to state what i believe is the need to update the packs, with interoperability as a concern. IF we are lucky enough to be awarded the grant, then each rep will have their shot at a presentation.
My original question was if there is anything i should be concerned with as far as options, like the HUD, VAS, etc. Basically....what is worth it and what isnt. I have to keep in mind we will have to fund the 5% match of $60-70k. While that isnt such a deciding factor, i still want to show that im not just goin for all the bells and whistles without regard to the $$, if that makes sense.\

Thanks for all the input Guys!

Hey I am not angry or trying to be confrontational with Fyredup; he did not seem to understand what is was we were trying to say and I just wanted to clarify my statements to him and for him to consider the why and wherefore of what we had stated about naming a brand name. No offense taken on my part for sure.

[BC79er]

Buying the same brand because the neighbors have them and you can change cylinders has already been tossed as a reason for purchasing by DHS. This rarely happens on any fire scene and if there's not enough air on an incident that's where a mobile cascade or compressor should be brought in, not more cylinders. Wasted resources to do otherwise, since if someone shows up on a truck that has filled cylinders then their firefighters will be using a pack and a spare before checking into Rehab, so why put a 3rd cylinder on someone off of another truck? Doesn't make sense. Haven't been on a scene in 17 years with 4 departments in 2 states where that's been done and since they couldn't find many departments that ever shared cylinders they tossed it.

Same reason that RIT is a universal connection, brand name doesn't matter. When it comes to grants, no names. When it comes to bid specs, no names, no manufacturer specific language. Only a predetermined survey that a handful of people from the department will use to review/rate multiple brands of a product to be used in a purchasing decision.

Now valid reasons for purchasing something other than low bid include service locations, mobile testing/service capabilities of a vendor, survey results on fit, feel, etc. Prior history with a vendor is also a valid reason for chosing a product. Name brand doesn't matter since the viewpoint should be that anything is better than what you have now.