Old Vehicle Disposition

[rands1]

I'm reading through the paperwork that I received from my regional rep. when we recived our vehicle award. On page 5 section title "Safety requirments- Old Vehicle Disposition" It states "Old vehicles may not be sold as fire apparatus to countries outside of the United States". Is this a new thing for the 2010 vehicle awards? I knew that you couldn't sell the old vehicle to another U.S. department, but I thought that you could sell outside of the U.S. Has anybody else come across this? Has anybody called their regional rep on this yet ? What answer did you get?

[hinesfire]

Our Grant Manager emphasized this point on disposition during our conference call, including the fact that the replaced vehicle cannot be put into the fire service in ANY country.

[rands1]

Boy, this is really going to limit the ways for departmets to get rid of their old vehicles. I looked through the PG and I cannot find anything about not selling to others countries. This has to be new for 2010.

[islandfire03]

Rands: i had this discussion with a AFG regional rep last fall. Their intention is that if your old truck is so unsafe that it needs replacing with federal funds , then it should go to the scrap yard or taken completely out of service permanently.

He told me a tale about an older ladder truck that was replaced by AFG funding and the lucky department sold their old one to a private individual who just happened to be the fire chief in another town down the road. It went to a body shop got a few rusted compartments repaired, new tires & brakes, and a new paint job along with new lettering..It was then "Donated " to said second department by the private purchaser.

While not technically illegal , it sure smelled like a serious case of fraud to him. They were investigating further.

That is why they now ask how long you have owned any truck when asking for replacement.
They don't want a department buying a 30 year old truck for a couple grand to artificially age the fleet and then ask for a new tax funded replacement.

There are always guardhouse lawyers trying to subvert the guidelines.

[dragonfyre]

There are always guardhouse lawyers trying to subvert the guidelines.

Sounds like a company near us that a few years ago got a grant for a tanker when they had signed a contract for a new rescue pumper. They weren't lying when they said they didn't have the money to buy a new tanker but they certainly stretched the guidelines. FEMA didn't catch that one.

[dfd701]

Have any of you priced scrap iron lately. They are giving right at $10. a hundred around here. Our old aerial platform we are trying to replace would bring more in scrap than selling it as a truck. If we are lucky enough to get FEMA to replace it then that is what we intend to do. I don’t know what scrap is bringing in other parts of the country but if you have any laying around you better watch out for thieves. They have hit me three times in the last few months stealing everything that wasn’t tied down. Had to put cameras up at the farm just to keep what is mine. The sad part about that if you do catch them the court system want do anything to them. The preacher told me to forgive them and let them have it that God is watching them. I told the preacher that he should do a better job because another month or so I want have anything left to steal.
You all have a great day.

[BC79er]

You can sell the vehicle to a used apparatus dealer, just not directly to another fire department. Actually just got an email on this last week with the legal clarifications:

Rights and rules when buying used fire apparatus
Purchasing a used fire truck is legally distinguishable from buying a brand
new vehicle
By Edward S. Robson
Robson Law

Purchasing used fire apparatus can mean getting low-mileage, high-quality
equipment at excellent prices. Currently, there is a surplus of fire
apparatus making the market even more attractive. Buying used apparatus is
legally distinguishable from buying new apparatus, particularly in regards
to warranties and the risk of loss.

Contracts for the sale of fire apparatus are governed by Article II of the
Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), which has been adopted in some form in all
states except Louisiana. Article II makes a distinction between "merchants,"
sellers who regularly deal in goods of a particular kind, and
"non-merchants," sellers that do not regularly deal in particular goods.

In the context of fire apparatus, a dealer of fire apparatus, one that takes
title to the apparatus before selling it to its eventual owner, is a
merchant under the UCC. Conversely, a fire company selling its used
apparatus to another fire company, either directly or through a broker, is
likely not a merchant.

Warranties
In addition to any express warranties a seller may make to a purchaser, the
UCC implies three warranties into contracts for the sale of used fire
apparatus:

1. Merchantability

2. fitness for a particular purpose

3. Title

A seller's breach of any of these warranties may be grounds for monetary
damages or other remedies.

The implied warranty of merchantability is simply a guarantee from the
seller to the purchaser that the apparatus being purchased is "fit for the
ordinary purposes for which (fire apparatus is) used." In other words, the
apparatus must be able to perform fire suppression and other fire department
activities in a satisfactory fashion. Unless expressly disclaimed, the UCC
imposes the warranty of merchantability on dealers but not fire-company
sellers.

Thus, absent an agreement to the contrary, a purchaser buying apparatus
directly from a fire-company seller should assume they are purchasing the
apparatus "as is." By the same token, the cost premium sometimes associated
with purchasing apparatus from a dealer may be justified by the accompanying
warranty of merchantability.

The implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose arises when a
seller is aware of "any particular purpose for which [the fire apparatus is]
required" and "that the buyer is relying on the skill or judgment of the
seller to select or furnish suitable [fire apparatus]." This warranty arises
both in purchases from fire-company sellers and dealers.

Practically speaking, it may be difficult to demonstrate to a court that a
purchaser relied on the skill or judgment of fire-company seller when
selecting appropriate apparatus and so they should not assume that the
implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose applies to their
transaction. At the same time, fire-company sellers should take care not to
represent that a particular piece of apparatus will be able to meet the
needs of a potential seller.

The UCC also implies a warranty of title. This simply means that the seller
warrants to the purchaser that the seller owns the apparatus free and clear
of other claims. This warranty applies equally to dealers and fire-company
sellers and is difficult to disclaim.
Rarely is this warranty at issue but fire-company sellers should be sure to
extinguish any purchase money security interests or other liens prior to the
sale of any apparatus.

Delivery and risk of loss
The risk of loss passes from the seller to a purchaser at different times
depending on whether the seller is a dealer or fire-company seller. In the
case of a dealer, the risk of loss passes to the purchaser when the
purchaser actually receives the fire apparatus. With a fire-company seller,
the risk of loss passes to the purchaser when the seller tenders the
apparatus to the buyer. Tendering apparatus means alerting the purchaser
that the apparatus is ready to be picked up or otherwise offering the
apparatus for delivery.

This distinction can be significant. For example, if a dealer alerts a
purchaser that a piece of apparatus is ready to be picked up on Tuesday but
the purchaser fails to take delivery until Thursday, the dealer will be
liable for the loss of the apparatus if it catches fire on Wednesday. With a
fire-company seller in the same scenario, the risk of loss would have passed
to the purchaser on Tuesday notwithstanding the fact that the purchaser did
not pick it up and the purchaser would bear the loss of the fire on
Wednesday.

Let's make a deal
The UCC provides default positions to sales agreements. It is the drafters'
best guess as to what the parties would have agreed had their agreement
addressed the issue. This means that sellers and purchasers can change those
assumptions with an explicit, preferably written, agreement.

Other UCC provisions and the particularities of the law in your state may
affect apparatus purchases. This article is no substitute for competent
legal counsel licensed to practice in your state.

About the author:

Edward S. Robson is the managing member of Robson&Robson, LLC, a law firm
located just outside of Philadelphia. Mr. Robson has represented volunteer
fire and ambulance companies in a variety of matters, including First
Amendment issues, civil rights, employment, contract negotiations, internal
governance, personnel policies, SOP's and equipment purchases. He has
volunteered as an EMT since 2003 and currently serves as a member of the
board of directors of a large suburban fire company. Mr. Robson graduated
with honors from both Villanova University and Villanova University School
of Law. He can be reached at [email protected] or (610) 825-3009.

Basically this is the full legalese of what I've been saying on why dealers can do this, because they are obligated to make certain repairs to the vehicles to make them safe prior to sale. Also why you can sell the truck to a dealer, if you can find one willing to make said repairs on the hopes they can resell it and make a buck at it.

And DFD, Sams Club sells motion detecting security lights that play sounds when activated. I'd be willing to bet that the sound of a 12 gauge racking when the light came on might change someone's mind about stealing something. And put it more on changing their drawers...

[rands1]

We're in the process now of reviewing bids for our new pumper. We have 8 companies that submitted bids. Part of the bid was to give us a trade in value for the old pumper. All 8 stated that because they cannot sell the truck to another department, it has no trade in value. We may get 2 to 5 thousand for it if we sell it out right to a construction co, farmer and so on.

[BC79er]

Per the above, they can they just have to put money into it. In most cases, not worth it depending on what needs repairing.

Also you can only do a trade-in value if the price is higher than your awarded project. You can't use trade-in value as matching equivalent. You may have known that but just wanted it out there in case anyone new(er) was reading and thought this was a way to avoid cash/cash-equivalent matching on an AFG award.

[LVFD301]

Have any of you priced scrap iron lately. They are giving right at $10. a hundred around here. Our old aerial platform we are trying to replace would bring more in scrap than selling it as a truck. If we are lucky enough to get FEMA to replace it then that is what we intend to do. I don’t know what scrap is bringing in other parts of the country but if you have any laying around you better watch out for thieves. They have hit me three times in the last few months stealing everything that wasn’t tied down. Had to put cameras up at the farm just to keep what is mine. The sad part about that if you do catch them the court system want do anything to them. The preacher told me to forgive them and let them have it that God is watching them. I told the preacher that he should do a better job because another month or so I want have anything left to steal.
You all have a great day.

There is hope. This guy broke into one of my tower sites - twice. 11 years!!! The way Missouri sentencing works, he HAS to serve at least 7 years before even being eligible for parole.

http://taneycountyprosecutor.com/wp-...per-thefts.pdf

[rands1]

Per the above, they can they just have to put money into it. In most cases, not worth it depending on what needs repairing.

Also you can only do a trade-in value if the price is higher than your awarded project. You can't use trade-in value as matching equivalent. You may have known that but just wanted it out there in case anyone new(er) was reading and thought this was a way to avoid cash/cash-equivalent matching on an AFG award.

Your right, we were just hoping to get a little extra cast to buy some new equipment for the truck (axes,pike poles, vent saw and so on).

[dfd701]

“And DFD, Sams Club sells motion detecting security lights that play sounds when activated. I'd be willing to bet that the sound of a 12 gauge racking when the light came on might change someone's mind about stealing something. And put it more on changing their drawers.”

That is a good idea Brain. I will have to check into that.
Hey Blake I am sending that link to our local DA maybe he will get the point that enough is enough. Time do something about this problem.
Thanks Guys

[slackjawedyokel]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/fire-...item43a502750d

[BC79er]

As long is the buyer isn't an FD nothing wrong with it.

[islandfire03]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/fire-...item43a502750d

The problem I have with this ad is if it is in such bad condition as to warrant replacement with federal tax dollars then why is it still in front line service and "must be sold when new grant funded engine arrives" ?
Looks like a pretty decent truck to me. 24,000 miles on a 450 detroit and allison auto. Barely broken in.

Also buy it now price of 40 k? Seems aa little steep for a truck that can't go back into fire service, and who else would want it?