AFG Question?

[fireinfo10]

... Kurt has preached to us so many times about those shiney bracelets that he used to carry around.
...

His donut carrier?

[imafireman]

Sly you are correct, it can be sold to a "dealer". But if you told the folks from afg that it was unsafe in order to get funding then it is supposed to be removed permanently from the fire service. There appears to be a certain crowd that feels they can subvert the rules and sell it to a dealer who then resells it to another fire department with only minor[ repaint, pump rebuild] repairs and that meets the requirements. Somewhere in this process somebody is committing fraud. not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, just repeating things heard + seen by grants specialist.

IF you claim a truck is unfit for you to use and you sell it knowing that it will most likely show up in someone else's firehouse in the near future, then it really wasn't in that bad a condition to be replaced by our tax dollars.

Selling it to a farmer or junkyard is the intent of the program , not selling it to a used truck dealer to put a little money into it + sell for a profit.

Just my personal interpretation of the rules after speaking to several members of the AFG staff.

I was told that the vehicle could be sold to a dealer and then to another fire department as long as the necessary repairs are made to bring it back within NFPA compliance. I am not willing to take the chance doing that. Kurt has preached to us so many times about those shiney bracelets that he used to carry around.

If you want to be sure and dont want to take any chances, before selling the truck to the farmer, remove all the emergency lighting and any firefighting tools. I dont know of too many departments that will buy it from the farmer and have to purchase all the lighting and tools again. It just would not be economically feasible.

[islandfire03]

The problem is that it's not. It's completely wrong in my eyes, but there have been hundreds of vehicles sold to dealers.

No rule currently says you can't.

Sly you are correct, it can be sold to a "dealer". But if you told the folks from afg that it was unsafe in order to get funding then it is supposed to be removed permanently from the fire service. There appears to be a certain crowd that feels they can subvert the rules and sell it to a dealer who then resells it to another fire department with only minor[ repaint, pump rebuild] repairs and that meets the requirements. Somewhere in this process somebody is committing fraud. not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, just repeating things heard + seen by grants specialist.

IF you claim a truck is unfit for you to use and you sell it knowing that it will most likely show up in someone else's firehouse in the near future, then it really wasn't in that bad a condition to be replaced by our tax dollars.

Selling it to a farmer or junkyard is the intent of the program , not selling it to a used truck dealer to put a little money into it + sell for a profit.

Just my personal interpretation of the rules after speaking to several members of the AFG staff.

[NewHampshireFF]

Once you sell it, it ain't yours. I don't really see where it is fraud if the dealer then sells what is now HIS property to whomever will buy it.

Unless you mean that the fraud was that the vehicle wasn't truly dangerous, and the grant shouldn't have been accepted?

[SLY4420]

Similar to a dept in Pa last year that got awarded a new apparatus and sold their "junk" truck to a vehicle dealer, who repainted it and sold it to a department a few miles away. Can you say FRAUD

The problem is that it's not. It's completely wrong in my eyes, but there have been hundreds of vehicles sold to dealers.

No rule currently says you can't.

[islandfire03]

What if you take the "unsafe" vehicle and have it rehab so it is no longer deemed "unsafe." Can the dept then keep the vehicle?

The simple answer is NO!
You are receiving federal tax dollars to replace an "unsafe vehicle, & suddenly after receiving Federal money , you now have the funds to repair this vehicle??
That would more than likely get you a visit from the inspector generals office and probably a lengthy federal prison sentence for committing fraud and misuse of government monies.

Similar to a dept in Pa last year that got awarded a new apparatus and sold their "junk" truck to a vehicle dealer, who repainted it and sold it to a department a few miles away. Can you say FRAUD

[LVFD301]

What if you take the "unsafe" vehicle and have it rehab so it is no longer deemed "unsafe." Can the dept then keep the vehicle?

That smacks of wrong.

The AFG says if you said you are replacing it, you need to replace it, and dispose of it according to their guidelines

[DTaa66]

you are stating in the grant you do not have funds to repair this truck and are unable to purchase a new truck and now you are going to have it upgraded? where is this money coming from? Think about it.

[FFlashover]

Rehab

What if you take the "unsafe" vehicle and have it rehab so it is no longer deemed "unsafe." Can the dept then keep the vehicle?

[gmfire21]

good deal. just want to make sure we do this legally. thank you

[onebugle]

ok, trying to cover my bases here on this. i don not want to default on my grant. say our fd sells this old pumper to farmer joe in another county or state to use on his farm. we have him sign contract or something stating that this vehicle can not be used for fire service, that we have removed it from fire service and all is fine and good. then 6 months or years down the road this said farmer decides he don't need it anymore and he sells the pumper to another FD. how does this impact us? please guru's, help, for we do not want to get defaulted on our grant down the road.

From the FAQ's:

The unsafe vehicle cannot be used in emergency service. It cannot be sold, donated, and/or given to another department. The unsafe vehicle may be traded in, taken to the junk yard for scrap, donated to a museum, relegated to farm use, or given to a training academy as long as it will not be utilized for driver training (it could be used for training firefighters to operate the pump). In order to assure an unsafe vehicle is removed, we'll require the grantee to transfer title of the vehicle to any individual or organization that is not in the business of providing first-responder services.

By selling the vehicle and transfering the title to a farmer will meet the requirement as they are not providing first-responder services. What the farmer does with the vehicle in the future is his right, but you would not be held accountable as he is the title holder and not you.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer (LOL) and my interpretation. Call your FPS for further clarification, but I do believe you will have no issues as long as you don't give/sell to a FD.

[gmfire21]

ok, trying to cover my bases here on this. i don not want to default on my grant. say our fd sells this old pumper to farmer joe in another county or state to use on his farm. we have him sign contract or something stating that this vehicle can not be used for fire service, that we have removed it from fire service and all is fine and good. then 6 months or years down the road this said farmer decides he don't need it anymore and he sells the pumper to another FD. how does this impact us? please guru's, help, for we do not want to get defaulted on our grant down the road.

[gmfire21]

thanks, thats what i had originally thought

[onebugle]

today we got an 1199a for a new pumper. long overdue, my question is, the pumper we are replacing has to be removed from "fire service" ?? does this mean from OUR service or all together?? what are the guidelines on this? any help

From the PG:

Applicants wanting to benefit from this consideration must certify that the unsafe vehicle will be permanently removed from emergency service if awarded a grant. “Permanently removed from emergency service” means that the grantee cannot use the vehicle for emergency service, nor may the grantee sell or otherwise transfer title to any individual or organization that will use the unsafe vehicle for emergency service. The grantee may NOT sell an unsafe vehicle to another fire department under any circumstances. A grantee that certifies that it will remove the unsafe vehicle from service but then sells the unsafe vehicle to another fire department, or otherwise does not remove the unsafe vehicle from service, is considered to be in default of the grant agreement. Acceptable uses of unsafe vehicles include farm or nursery use, scrap metal, salvage, construction, etc.

[gmfire21]

today we got an 1199a for a new pumper. long overdue, my question is, the pumper we are replacing has to be removed from "fire service" ?? does this mean from OUR service or all together?? what are the guidelines on this? any help