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  • NIMS should be dissolved

    I am discussing this in a different forum and it occurred to me that with all the NIMS demands, that the cost benefit of NIMS as an organization is terrible.

    The money that runs that program has got to be substantial and the benefit from them is negligible if it even exists at all.

    Doesn't the emergency services already understand pretty well the jurisdiction issues that NIMS is really about?

    We need to get rid of NIMS just for the sake of budget issues and volunteer departments the costs involved are too high. At least we cant seem to ask NIMS for any accountability.

    No, I already know.... they are not worth the effort anymore since they expanded past a training source.

  • #2
    I think the President of NIMS has been up to some shenanigans with all that money!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jam24u View Post
      Doesn't the emergency services already understand pretty well the jurisdiction issues that NIMS is really about?
      You must live in that utopia I've heard about where different local, state, and federal agencies were working together in perfect harmony before NIMS came along. A place where no one argued about jurisdiction. Must have been nice.

      NIMS training sure can be a pain and certainly doesn't solve everything, but it better than what was going on before. At least there is some guidance on how things need to be operating. Sure, parts aren't terribly relevant to everyone, but thats what you get whenever you implement any standard.

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      • #4
        Jam, I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this, but you do understand that NIMS isn't an organization, right?

        Originally posted by jam24u
        Doesn't the emergency services already understand pretty well the jurisdiction issues that NIMS is really about?
        Tell that to one of our local PD's who didn't play well with their FD because for the the PD, "Side A" is "wherever the threat of injury is greatest" and "can change several times during an incident." NIMS education finally explained the the PD how it's really supposed to work.

        NIMS might be a pain in the butt, but it is helping to organize emergency services across the US, especially those organizations who might not have been using NIMS/ICS as routinely as the fire service.
        Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 08-28-2010, 12:31 AM.
        Career Fire Captain
        Volunteer Chief Officer


        Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jam24u View Post
          I am discussing this in a different forum and it occurred to me that with all the NIMS demands, that the cost benefit of NIMS as an organization is terrible.

          The money that runs that program has got to be substantial and the benefit from them is negligible if it even exists at all.

          Doesn't the emergency services already understand pretty well the jurisdiction issues that NIMS is really about?

          We need to get rid of NIMS just for the sake of budget issues and volunteer departments the costs involved are too high. At least we cant seem to ask NIMS for any accountability.

          No, I already know.... they are not worth the effort anymore since they expanded past a training source.
          Jim I am with you buddy. Let’s gather the troops and rally in front of 1600 Pennsylvania Av. We can carry signs that say”we are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore” Seriously they are getting over board with the NIMS. Most of our volunteer firefighters have two jobs already and they take care of the kids while mother works just to pay the bills. With all the other training in the fire service they have to do they seem to get over burdened with all those NIMS numbers you have to learn. NIMS are running some good people away from volunteering at the fire department. I had two well trained firefighters quit because they just didn’t have the time to take all the classes. They said if they couldn’t give their all or their best at doing something like firefighting than they just wouldn’t do it at all. They couldn’t do it half way and take a chance of getting someone hurt. I can understand that and I thanked them for being honest.
          I have a simple way to determine who is in charge of a scene. The one with the most 0’s at the end of their pay check. That would mean I couldn’t even bring them a cup of coffee.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jam24u View Post
            I am discussing this in a different forum and it occurred to me that with all the NIMS demands, that the cost benefit of NIMS as an organization is terrible.
            Does it still elide you that NIMS isn't an organization?

            We need to get rid of NIMS just for the sake of budget issues and volunteer departments the costs involved are too high.
            What costs are associated with NIMS that you're so worked up about? Shouldn't we just get rid of all training because it costs money?

            At least we cant seem to ask NIMS for any accountability.
            Of course not. You can't ask a set of SOPs for accountability.

            they are not worth the effort anymore since they expanded past a training source.
            Who the f--- are "they"?
            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
            sigpic
            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
              Jam, I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this, but you do understand that NIMS isn't an organization, right?
              It would appear not.
              "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
              sigpic
              The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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              • #8
                This sounds like someone (not the OP) is throwing around the name "NIMS" for something other then what it is...

                We implemented it and it really wasn't a big deal, we even have guys at the highest level of IMS training and again... t'weren't much.
                I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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                • #9
                  Are any of yall getting your PD and EMS agencies to do NIMS training? It seems like all the crap is required but only the FD is doing it.
                  FF/Paramedic

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                  • #10
                    I haven't experienced any issues with ICS or NIMS within the fire department. Since its inception I just incorporate ICS 100, 200 & 700 into the training requirement. Once it is completed, it is done.

                    Officers must take the 16 hour ICS300, and if they are Captain or higher, ICS400. But they have a choice, do it or step away from the rank and responsibility.

                    The biggest issue I have seen is trying to educate the local elected folks that run the government. They don't understand that they too must play ball.

                    With federal money increasingly dependent on compliance, it might improve the odds of a payday.

                    I just wish that some of the basic principals of ICS would be excercised by some Federal Agencies when they come out and play with us. But I think that is a leadership failure.

                    Jam... I understand your concern and would be glad to offer some suggestions if you wish. Contact me anytime sir.
                    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TNFF319 View Post
                      Are any of yall getting your PD and EMS agencies to do NIMS training? It seems like all the crap is required but only the FD is doing it.
                      Not sure about yours but with the exception of some recent new hires that is being taking care pretty quick all of my LE and EMS are 100% compliant as well as at least 80% of my firefighters county wide.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TNFF319 View Post
                        Are any of yall getting your PD and EMS agencies to do NIMS training? It seems like all the crap is required but only the FD is doing it.
                        I my volly county, Fire Department and Sheriff's Office have at least 700 and 100, and the supervisors have 200, 300, and 400 depending on rank. EMS has been much less compliant.

                        At work, every firefighter, police officer, EMS volunteer, dispatcher, county executive, school board member, school supervisory staff, and public works supervisors have have at least through 200, and once again, 300, 400, and special tracks of 800 are delivered depending on position within local government.
                        Career Fire Captain
                        Volunteer Chief Officer


                        Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sorry, I have been away. Been occupied with getting seven of my chapter members to the 8/28-29 event in Washington DC. Being flooded by new memberships. Yesterday I went to Lincoln to pick up four of my attendees after getting of on the event buses. Then had to drive to KC to pick up my son and family who just returned from Iraq a few weeks ago. 49 weeks was a long depoyment and now we have to load everyone for out of town football games.

                          Tag that all into fire meetings, training and NIMS and being on the National Tea Party council, I haven't been able to keep up with the forums this last week and the upcoming week.

                          Maybe tying them all in and then encountering a NIMS compliancy timetable handed down to us by our county EMA has got me a little punchy about NIMS, and ICS...

                          No I was right............NIMS sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jam24u View Post
                            Maybe tying them all in and then encountering a NIMS compliancy timetable handed down to us by our county EMA has got me a little punchy about NIMS, and ICS...
                            The NIMS compliance timetable (for those who choose to comply) was published in 2008. What took so long? (BTW, NIMS is ICS.)

                            No I was right............NIMS sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                            No, you simply don't have the vaguest understanding of what NIMS actually is...
                            Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 08-31-2010, 02:03 PM. Reason: typo
                            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                            sigpic
                            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ics/nims

                              Working in Southern California, ICS now adopted nationally, changed and renamed NIMS has always been the way that has always worked.

                              Working for the Army and seeing how initially they "just did not get it" that just because of rank you're not always the boss, it's about who has the specialty training/equipment to handle the incident that should be the IC. Now that NIMS has been required, it's taken care of that aspect and now they understand how it works. Pretty hard for Colonels and Generals to take "no, Sir you can't go in there" from a Civilian even harder for them to swallow that just because they're the "Heavy Brass" doesn't make them in-charge.

                              I recently attended a Table Top MasCal Training Exercise and was amazed that all the Directors (both Civilian and Military) have been required to take NIMS 700 and 800. It made the Training run so much smoother and our Colonel (he's been on Post for about 2 months or so) realize how well our agencies can work together. Now, I'm not gonna say we're perfect but I have seen a HUGE improvement with how NIMS and ICS has ironed-out a lot of our wrinkles.

                              As far as getting rid of NIMS, my opinion is that we need to keep it. The USFS, BLM, Coast Guard, FDs, DOD and even Law Enforcement has been using it; and it works. In areas that don't have Hi-Rises then don't implement positions like "Lobby Control" and such, but if you have a District that you run into even 4th or 5th Alarm then know what the job does. Nothing wrong with keeping the NIMS Field Guide or a Field Operations Guide in your turnouts and reviewing your responsibilities while enroute to the Call.

                              Well, reckon I'll get off my soapbox. I've been introduced to the ICS since I was a Paid-Call FF and I've seen it work on every call that it was implemented on. I have seen good calls go really bad due to a lack of "Command and Control" because a Command System was not implemented.
                              "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

                              Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

                              Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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