vehicle rescue

[dryhose]

Is my fire dept. in the dark ages by not providing or wanting to provide or having dept. sponsored training in heavy rescue. Our fire dept. was asked by the local ambulance service who provides heavy rescue, to help them out by having our dept. trained in the use of the rescue tools by a state instructor. They stated that they do not have enough people to provide rescue and ems.Our dept. voted not to help. ANY IDEA'S on how we can persuade our dept. to do this service. We are all vol.

[Captain Gonzo]

I feel that rescue ops belong with the fire department. I think you will get more input to your situation if you can answer the following questions.

Why is the ambulance performing heavy rescue services?

Are they a volunteer rescue squad or is the ambulance service a for profit organization?

Has there been any "unhealthy rivalry" between the two organizations?

Are there "personality conflicts" between the
department heads of both organizations?

Once these are answered, the Brothers and Sisters of the forums will be able to help you aut.

------------------
Firefighters: rising under adverse conditions to accept the challenge!
Captain Gonzo

[M G]

Cap'

Please explain your reasoning why rescue belongs to the fire service, and I am not provoking an attack, merely just asking for your basis of that judgment. I am curious to see your answers, not that I think you are right or wrong, but this is a topic up for debate in my book. Thanks

------------------
The information presented herein is simply my opinion and does not represent the opinion or view of my employer(s) or any department/agency to which I belong.

[LtStick]

The Department that I run with has only been providing Heavey rescue services for about 10 years it was previously provided by other Fire Companies. I have heard of other places where EMS is providing heavey rescue. I don't think that it matters who provides heavey rescue as long as they do the job corectly.
You may want to try and convice them that this would be a good thing in that your members would provide an even greater resorce to the cumunity that you serve. It would provide greater knowledge for your members. Which brings up an old saying" knowledge is power". I hope this helps you. Sometimes you deal with people that just don't listen. You may even try and talk to the guys individually rather than at a meeting where some times people are unwilling to speak there minds. It may help your cause if you can get some of the younger members interested. Some people just don't want to change.

[Smoke286]

One reason I can think of is where do you get the room on an ambulance for jaws, cutters, rams, chains, cribbing, airbags etc etc. and as most ambulance services only carry 2 personel how they going to do all this. In our jurisdiction the ambulance service transports. period we extricate and package

[Smoke286]

OK, I never said I could count

[NCRSQ751]

I think to say that extrication 'belongs' with any particular group as a rule is inappropriate. I think it should be done by whomever can do it most effectively.

In many places that is the fire department. In many places there are specialized squads that do it. Obviously in some places EMS does it.

What matters it getting the appropriate equipment and trained personnel to the incident in the most expedient manner and to extricate the patient as quickly as possible. Who does it will vary by locale.

I think that if the EMS service is asking for help you should give it - after all - aren't we all working to the same goal? We all want that patient to get the quickest, most efficient care possible right? It could be an expansion of services for your department which could help you with funding in the long run.

I'd consider it a compliment that they think highly enough of you to come and ask that you work with them - it beats all the rivalry garbage we so often read about. You will build a stronger network for the people you service.

------------------
Susan Bednar
Forsyth Rescue Squad (Captain)
NCTF-1
Griffith Volunteer FD

[pyroknight]

I think to say that extrication 'belongs' with any particular group as a rule is inappropriate. I think it should be done by whomever can do it most effectively.

Susan,
I have to disagree. Having grown up and served in rural NC, I am familiar with how things work in your "neck of the woods" and I think it could be done better. Fire departments are required to maintain haz mat training, already have the necessary PPE for use in structural firefighting, and have a cache of forcible entry gear that crosses over well for use in vehicle extrication. Many of the well-intentioned, dedicated professionals that I have seen in "rescue squads" in NC are not well-suited for or well trained at vehicle extrication. If something does catch on fire, you're gonna need fire anyway. Many of these areas the firefighters just don't want to step up and perform the tasks that, if they were honest with themselves and their citizen community, they rightfully should be performing.

The real problem surfaces when the EMS provider in an area like that goes belly up and either a county agency or a private agency steps up. I have heard of few true EMS agencies that have the capacity for rescue (please don't yell at me about specific exceptions, there are always exceptions, I'm speaking of the OVERWHELMING majority of cases here). I believe that fire departments that aren't involved in vehicle extrication (and first response EMS for that matter) in their jurisdiction, should do the responsible, professional thing and face the challenge for the benefit of their communties.

[LtStick]

Smoke286 I know first hand of an Ambulance service who preforms Heavy rescue. They have there own heavy rescue as well as two BLS transport units. so you see thats where they put all the necacary equipment.
Also in NY city the police preformed heavy rescue. Wether or not they still do I'm not sure.
If dryhose could answere some of the questions posted by other members of the forum it might help clear things up and then we could give a better answer to the questions.

[NCRSQ751]

Pyro, apparently you're not as familiar as you think. In this neck of the woods the squads PARTNER with the fire department for all vehicle extrications. We have a dual response. Even before they became trained in vehicle rescue, an FD always responded with squads to have a charged line etc.

I stick to my original story - whomever is most capable of delivering the service in the most timely and effective manner should provide it. Being territorial or thinking that one type of service is always better than another is counterproductive.

------------------
Susan Bednar
Forsyth Rescue Squad (Captain)
NCTF-1
Griffith Volunteer FD

[This message has been edited by NCRSQ751 (edited 03-12-2001).]

[cfr3504]

For what ever reason, if you dept doesn't want to provide the services, or take on the expense and responsibility, that fine, your choice, as long as someone is there to provide the service. But in my opinion you should take the training as it's offered, and be willing to assist them when needed. I don't understand why any training would be turned down, you can never learn too much. In my area, EMS (volunteer rescue squads) provide the heavy rescue, my fire dept also provides it , because we are also the rescue squad so we handle it all, fire suppression/rescue/transport. It's just always been like this for whatever reason. Each of the EMS agencies have 1 or more rescue trucks along with ambulances, and the Fire depts that do EMS transport have a resuce, or carry tools on a fire truck. My dept did do extrication, before we did EMS transport, but it was rare in this area. The departemnt that don't carry the tools , do assist the squads with the rescues though, and many members are trained. This system may not be the best, but it's always worked well in this area.

[BFD847]

I find it interesting that Ambulance services would be responsible for extrication. I do work for a fire department that supplies ALS transport serice for our area. But usually if I'm assigned to the ambulance I am resposible for patient not playing with the tools. And frankly would'nt have the time. The ambulance services I have worked for have never been set up in this fasion. I guess I can see no real problem with who runs "rescue" service as long as they have equipment and trainging to do the job properly. I did have to stop and think outside the circle a little bit. My first thought was 2 people runing out on an ambulance loaded down with extrication equipment.

As far as helping you with the question posed. This could be an up hill battle.
Persistence may pay off.

[pyroknight]

Being territorial or thinking that one type of service is always better than another is counterproductive.

I haven't relocated back to NC yet, so I'm not really being territorial. That was one of my pet peeves when I was a volunteer. I'm not one to go around "spraying" trees to keep my competitors out, lol.
I certainly would not try to argue that FDs are always better at extrication, just that they should be. They have the proper PPE and equipment, if they obtain the training and apply the motivation and effort, they should be able to provide an extremely valuable service to their community. If they choose not to do so, it is a disservice to the department and the community.

[Captain Gonzo]

MG...sorry I didn't get back to you right away!

I believe that the Fire Department is best suited to perform rescue operations because of the experience because it is an integral part of the job. In my community, we respond with our rescue and the nearest engine company to all motor vehicle accidents. We roll two companies because you never know what you will find on the scene. The additional personnel can enable us to put extrication tools into operation quickly, start patient assessment and treatment and perform triage in MCI situations. On another post about this subject, dryhose answers the questions I asked...I'll go there and post my responses.

------------------
Firefighters: rising under adverse conditions to accept the challenge!
Captain Gonzo

[HOTDOG]

I will have to agree with Capt. Gonzo on this one, not because I am a ff and not because I feel we are "better" than ems.

In our area, mostly rural, we have a problem with ems having a staffing level appropriate enough to respond with a unit, much less run a crash unit out with a squad. Our fire departments are equiped to handle such situatons and usually have sufficient manpower to secure vehicle, provide fire suppression, and extricate. But this is our area, and I am sure that other areas differ. I feel that the primary concern of ems is the patient...we will assist with the medics that we have if needed. I also feel that, especially in multiple injury accidents, that the more units on scene the worse the communication between agencies is and the more headache there is for the IC. We work with our ems agencies to ensure that we all know the roles we have and have all bases covered. Fire departments are going to be there anyway, so we take care of the dirty work.

Begin with the end in mind!

Be safe!