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  • Originally posted by koolaid1 View Post
    I understand your anger and frustration over those who question 9/11.


    Can anybody provide any National Standards or federal evidence laws that allow for the destruction of evidence before the investigation? Can you name any other major investigation in U.S. fire history, other than 9/11 WTC 7, that was conducted using NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE?


    How does demanding an investigation of the events that caused the death of so many of our Brothers follow basic National Standards dishonor them?

    Can any of you please answer any of these questions in a professional manner?
    "I understand your anger and frustration over those who question 9/11."

    No, you don't. It appears you don't understand A LOT of things.

    "Can any of you please answer any of these questions in a professional manner?"

    We have. As ChiefKN posted, "Scroll up... we've addressed your idiotic and incomplete analysis."

    "How does demanding an investigation of the events that caused the death of so many of our Brothers follow basic National Standards dishonor them?"

    You can request another investigation. But don't scream "conspiracy!" if it doesn't happen. In fact, your ilk had an opportunity for literally years to offer so-called evidence in the original investigation.

    "Can anybody provide any National Standards or federal evidence laws that allow for the destruction of evidence before the investigation? Can you name any other major investigation in U.S. fire history, other than 9/11 WTC 7, that was conducted using NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE?"

    The WTC in general:

    "Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse."

    http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

    WTC7:
    Claim: The minimal wreckage available for later investigation has generated speculation. Some conspirators point to the fast removal of debris as evidence of a government coverup.
    NIST report and press conference: Compared to WTC 1 and 2, NIST had very little WTC 7 wreckage to study. The site was cleared quickly in a search-an- rescue effort, and much of the debris was transported to salvage yards. "There was no loss of life," Sunder noted. "In hindsight, we knew that the building was evacuated. But we didn't know that on that day." Hundreds of investigators at the salvage yards later found that the Twin Towers' steel columns were labeled and numbered, while the columns from Towers 5, 6 and 7 were not. "I am not surprised that there wasn't a lot of identifiable debris," Sunder said. "But at the time, we were concerned about terrorists who attacked our country and search and rescue. I think the fact that they [invesigators] didn't collect [wreckage] was the least important activity that happened that day."


    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...h/4278927.html



    Claim: The way the building fell was caused by demolition or thermate. (Thermate is thermite mixed with sulfur and sometimes other chemicals, which produces brief but intense and highly localized incendiary effects.)
    NIST report and press conference: Sunder said that his team investigated these hypothetical causes and ruled them out. "We asked ourselves what is the minimum amount of charge we could use to bring the building down," he said. "And we found that even the smallest charge would release an extremely loud sound heard half a mile away." There were no reports of such a sound; numerous observers and video recordings found the collapse to be relatively quiet.


    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...h/4278927.html

    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/f...qa_082108.html

    Why didn't the investigators look at actual steel samples from WTC 7?
    Steel samples were removed from the site before the NIST investigation began. In the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11, debris was removed rapidly from the site to aid in recovery efforts and facilitate emergency responders’ efforts to work around the site. Once it was removed from the scene, the steel from WTC 7 could not be clearly identified. Unlike the pieces of steel from WTC 1 and WTC 2, which were painted red and contained distinguishing markings, WTC 7 steel did not contain such identifying characteristics.

    Your entire investigation included no physical evidence. How can you be so sure you know what happened?
    In general, much less evidence existed for WTC 7 than for the two WTC towers. The steel for WTC 1 and WTC 2 contained distinguishing characteristics that enabled it to be identified once removed from the site during recovery efforts. However, the same was not true for the WTC 7 steel. Certainly, there is a lot less visual and audio evidence of the WTC 7 collapse compared to the collapses of the WTC 1 and WTC 2 towers, which were much more widely photographed.

    Nonetheless, the NIST investigation of WTC 7 is based on a huge amount of data. These data come from extensive research, interviews, and studies of the building, including audio and video recordings of the collapse. Rigorous, state-of-the-art computer methods were designed to study and model the building’s collapse. These validated computer models produced a collapse sequence that was confirmed by observations of what actually occurred. In addition to using its in-house expertise, NIST relied upon private sector technical experts; accumulated copious documents, photographs and videos of this disaster; conducted first-person interviews of building occupants and emergency responders; analyzed the evacuation and emergency response operations in and around WTC 7; performed computer simulations of the behavior of WTC 7 on Sept. 11, 2001, and combined the knowledge gained into a probable collapse sequence.



    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/f...qa_082108.html


    Now, let me repeat a question I asked very early in the thread that YOU did not answer; one of many asked and not answered: "Have you talked to any of them (FFs who were there)? You quote them."

    Follow-up: Have you personally talked to any experts, like Vincent Dunn? Or any of those who were actively involved in the investigation?



    http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....i?u=911_morons

    http://www.tompaine.com/articles/our_spook_speaks.php

    Comment


    • Let me sum up the "9/11 truth movement" for you guys:

      CHEMTRAILS SECRET GOVERNMENT PLOT THERMITE MISSILE JEWS RADIO FREQUENCY UN

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ActionGoose View Post
        Let me sum up the "9/11 truth movement" for you guys:

        CHEMTRAILS SECRET GOVERNMENT PLOT THERMITE MISSILE JEWS RADIO FREQUENCY UN
        And it's all being kept in check by our Kenyan born President. Just ask moonbat.
        They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

        I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

        Comment


        • Again, ignore this troll and he will go away....


          ....so will this thread.
          Jason Knecht
          Firefighter/EMT
          Township Fire Dept., Inc.
          Eau Claire, WI

          IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
          http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
          EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

          Comment


          • arguing

            I would have to say that the sad thing about when you argue with idiots, from a distance it is hard to tell who the idiot really is.

            Comment


            • I would have to say that the sad thing about when you argue with idiots, from a distance it is hard to tell who the idiot really is.
              There is absolutely no problem telling who the idiots are when this issue comes up, regardless of how far away one may be.
              Member IACOJ

              Comment


              • "Can any of you please answer any of these questions in a professional manner?"
                We have. As ChiefKN posted, "Scroll up... we've addressed your idiotic and incomplete analysis."
                I guess we’re having a tough time communicating because our idea of professional is very different. I think this is a very serious issue, and deserves serious attention. When I scroll up these are many of the answers I find.
                Thermite? Gee. I never thought of it. I've never been trained on that before?
                The tinfoil hat brigade will always be with us,
                You guys are getting so upset by the tinfoil hat guys,
                I WAS THERE YOU FREAKIN' MORON!
                I was agreeing with you regarding this imbecile
                As ChiefKN’s signature says
                When the debate is over, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

                This whole thread is BS. All I can keep coming up with is STFU. If you were not there than STFU don't come looking for something that's not there. If you are looking for something to try and get people's minds thinking or put idea's out in peoples heads over this your a POS Plain and simple. Go back to your little life and don't bring it up anymore. You are a Disgrace to even bring it up…
                Many have slandered, but nobody cited any laws or National Standards that allow for the destruction of evidence, nobody named any other major fire in U.S. History that did an investigation with no physical evidence, nobody explained how we could rule out terrorists didn’t use explosives in addition to the strikes without testing for residue.


                You can request another investigation. But don't scream "conspiracy!" if it doesn't happen.
                Where am I screaming conspiracy? We are demanding a new investigation, and the passage of the James Zadroga Health and Compensation Act. We are also raising money for the Feal Good Foundation. What are you doing to help all the ground zero workers in need?


                "Have you talked to any of them (FFs who were there)? You quote them."
                Yes, I have talked to many that were there, none of the one’s I have quoted from the transcripts though. Some are upset with what I am doing, and that tears me up. Some are quietly supportive of what I am doing and that inspires me. I have heard many of their horrific experiences. Another told me he knows so much of it doesn’t add up, but it just tears him up to consider anything other than the official story.
                If they would like to speak with me, I would gladly speak with any of them.
                I was there at Ground Zero when they pulled some remains of a couple of our Brothers out, and it was one of the most emotional experiences of my life.


                Follow-up: Have you personally talked to any experts, like Vincent Dunn? Or any of those who were actively involved in the investigation?
                I have read Vincent Dunn’s articles, but no I have not spoken with him about this (I have met him at a couple of classes). Up until that day, nobody was an expert in high rise collapses due to fire, because it had never happened. That’s exactly why it should have been thoroughly analyzed – ESPECIALLY the Physical Evidence. I have spoken with some of the experts that were involved in different aspects of the investigation. And, I attempted to PM George Wendt to speak about the investigation, but as you read he refused to open my message.

                Speaking of experts: do you know the former Chief of the Fire Science Division of NIST has himself called for a new investigation? You should read his paper and listen to him speak.


                “James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has called for an independent review of NIST’s investigation into the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11.

                Dr. Quintiere made his plea during his presentation, “Questions on the WTC Investigations” at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference. “I wish that there would be a peer review of this,” he said, referring to the NIST investigation. “I think all the records that NIST has assembled should be archived. I would really like to see someone else take a look at what they’ve done; both structurally and from a fire point of view.”
                “I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable,” explained Dr. Quintiere. “Let's look at real alternatives that might have been the cause of the collapse of the World Trade Towers and how that relates to the official cause and what's the significance of one cause versus another.”
                Dr. Quintiere, one of the world’s leading fire science researchers and safety engineers, also encouraged his audience of fellow researchers and engineers to scientifically re-examine the WTC collapses. “I hope to convince you to perhaps become 'Conspiracy Theorists', but in a proper way,” he said."
                Now Quintiere does not support any theories about the buildings being blown up and in fact generally denies that. He just wants a new investigation.”
                Here’s the PDF of Alan Miller’s article: http://patriotsquestion911.com/Artic...20of%20911.pdf


                But don't just take my word for what he said. Anyone can purchase the recordings of his two talks from the NFPA; Session M21 on June 4 (69 minutes) and Spotlight Session T54 on June 5, 2007 (102 minutes). Session M21 on June 4 (69 minutes) and Spotlight Session T54 on June 5 (102 minutes). http://www.fleetwoodonsite.com/index...&osCsid=04863b

                The fact Dr. Quintiere is calling for a NEW INVESTIGATION makes me highly suspicious of the NIST report.

                Yet you only find a half dozen "witnesses"? C'mon dude, you're grasping at straws.
                Are you serious?
                Have you read the transcripts or listened to the radio transmissions? There are over 118 first responders reporting explosions, and even more civilians. I can provide you with hours of footage/transmissions and transcripts to review if you would like.
                How can you defend destroying evidence and not testing for residue?

                Another thing... you use eyewitness accounts from early on in the incident. That's really not a very scientific point of view.
                People making reports as events happen are credible witnesses. The transcripts were done well after the incident too. Remember, this was supposed to be an investigation. An investigation is done to determine the scientific proof – not the other way around.

                As for the sounds of explosions. That has been debunked. Do some googling, plenty of good explanations that explain it.
                So, what are you saying? …that we don’t need to examine or test the physical evidence as long as we can come up with some other explanations of what could have caused them. Don’t you get how HUGE it is that all the evidence of WTC 7 was destroyed, NIST refused to test for explosive residue, and the former Chief of the Fire Science Division of NIST says we need a NEW INVESTIGATION?


                Why do you want this to be true?
                I absolutely don’t want this to be true. It tears me up. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away though. It is my (our) duty as Americans to investigate this. We lost over 3,000 Americans, we are at war – we are sending thousands of soldiers to die over this, we are killing hundreds of thousands of humans, our economy is crumbling…with this much at stake – don’t you think we should have an investigation that follows National Standards? The very heads of the investigations, including members of the 9/11 Commission Report say the investigations were compromised, or severely flawed. So don’t YOU think we deserve the truth?

                I am amazed at the apathy. With so many of our Brothers murdered, with so many who didn’t hear evacuation orders because of old Motorola radios and a no bid contract, with their remains taken to the dump, with so many Ground Zero workers sick, dying and being tossed aside, with Congress’ refusal to pass the James Zadroga Health and Compensation Act while they ignore the People and so arrogantly bail out the banks and there cronies….HOW ARE YOU NOT OUTRAGED AND DEMANDING ANSWERS AND ACCOUNTABILITY?
                Last edited by koolaid1; 04-12-2009, 10:26 PM.

                Comment


                • So don’t YOU think we deserve the truth?
                  Here's the truth: Two large jets slammed into the Towers, severely weakening the structures. Further weakened by intense fire, the remaining structural elements could not support the load any longer and began to collapse. Both buildings failed in a similar fashion because they shared identical design features, which were unique to both buildings. I have seen engineered steel beams and trusses twist, contort, and fail in commercial occupancies thousands of times smaller than the Towers, without damage caused by a collision with a jet or thousands of pounds of jet fuel adding to the fuel load. To think it was impossible for these buildings to behave the way they did after the attacks and ensuing fire is just plain ignorance. For someone (supposedly) educated in the behavior of fire and building construction to resort to promoting the nonsense you have in light of the evidence and facts available is just plain stupid.
                  Go away.
                  Member IACOJ

                  Comment


                  • People making reports as events happen are credible witnesses.
                    Honest to God. Idiot Boy? Then when am I not a credible witness? Because I can telly ou that there were no explosions?
                    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by koolaid1 View Post
                      I Where am I screaming conspiracy? We are demanding a new investigation, and the passage of the James Zadroga Health and Compensation Act. We are also raising money for the Feal Good Foundation. What are you doing to help all the ground zero workers in need?
                      So you are asking for a new investigation. So what? The government has done their investigation. In it, you will find the answers to your questions. You just refuse to believe it. Why?

                      Let's also mention that the report was released in 2005! It's not like it was rushed out.

                      It was a careful and scientific approach.

                      Yes, I have talked to many that were there, none of the one’s I have quoted from the transcripts though.
                      And your quotes are out of context and really mean NOTHING, as the people describe hearing explosions. Noone denies that the sounds of a large building being hit by an airliner and being consumed by fire will have collapses that make noise. In addition, there are many other things that will make "explosion" noises in a building.

                      I was at a car fire and the tire let loose. Sure sounds like an explosion, but guess what, it isn't.


                      I have read Vincent Dunn’s articles, but no I have not spoken with him about this (I have met him at a couple of classes). Up until that day, nobody was an expert in high rise collapses due to fire, because it had never happened. That’s exactly why it should have been thoroughly analyzed – ESPECIALLY the Physical Evidence. I have spoken with some of the experts that were involved in different aspects of the investigation.
                      I'm sure most credible experts wouldn't even take your call.

                      Speaking of experts: do you know the former Chief of the Fire Science Division of NIST has himself called for a new investigation? You should read his paper and listen to him speak.
                      I wouldn't expect everyone to agree. However, you are not being completely honest about why he has called for a new investigation. It has nothing to do with these crazy theories about exotic accelerants.

                      So what... here's what he says of your theories.

                      Although Dr. Quintiere was strongly critical of NIST’s conclusions and its investigatory process, he made it clear he was not a supporter of theories that the Twin Towers were brought down by pre-planted explosives. “If you go to World Trade Center One, nine minutes before its collapse, there was a line of smoke that puffed out. This is one of the basis of the ‘conspiracy theories’ that says the smoke puffing out all around the building is due to somebody setting off an explosive charge. Well, I think, more likely, it’s one of the floors falling down.”

                      Dr. Quintiere then presented his and his students’ research that contradicts the NIST report and points to a different cause for the collapses; the application of insufficient fire-proofing insulation on the truss rods in the Twin Towers. “I suggest that there’s an equally justifiable theory and that’s the trusses fail as they are heated by the fire with the insulation intact. These are two different conclusions and the accountability for each is dramatically different,” he said.

                      The fact Dr. Quintiere is calling for a NEW INVESTIGATION makes me highly suspicious of the NIST report.
                      THAT makes you highly suspicious??? THAT.

                      Wow, you need some perspective. How come that ONE "expert" outweighs the hundreds of others that state the opposite? Simply because it fits your agenda?

                      Are you serious?
                      Have you read the transcripts or listened to the radio transmissions? There are over 118 first responders reporting explosions, and even more civilians. I can provide you with hours of footage/transmissions and transcripts to review if you would like.
                      See above, there were explosions and things that sounded like explosions. SO WHAT. Again, it proves nothing.

                      How can you defend destroying evidence and not testing for residue?
                      Residue of what? There's no reason to believe that there was any residue to test for. Did you not see the video of the two fully fueled airliners crashing into the buildings?

                      "destroying evidence" is an overly dramatic way of putting what happened. The site was cleared, there were mountains and mountains of debris and they were cleared.

                      Of course, there could have been thousands of people in on a conspiracy to destroy the evidence, but c'mon... let's be realistic.

                      Originally posted by NIST
                      Compared to WTC 1 and 2, NIST had very little WTC 7 wreckage to study. The site was cleared quickly in a search-an- rescue effort, and much of the debris was transported to salvage yards. "There was no loss of life," Sunder noted. "In hindsight, we knew that the building was evacuated. But we didn't know that on that day." Hundreds of investigators at the salvage yards later found that the Twin Towers' steel columns were labeled and numbered, while the columns from Towers 5, 6 and 7 were not. "I am not surprised that there wasn't a lot of identifiable debris," Sunder said. "But at the time, we were concerned about terrorists who attacked our country and search and rescue. I think the fact that they [invesigators] didn't collect [wreckage] was the least important activity that happened that day."

                      In addition, new computer models of the collapse had to be created. "A typical fire simulation for a single floor of the building took up to two days with a stateof- the-art cluster of Linux computers. We had computer programs that took six to eight months to get a correct run, and we wanted to make sure we got this right. And three years is not an unusual length of time." Sunder emphasized that previous reports were preliminary and provisional. "We didn't have the insight that thermal expansion could have happened until early last year," Sunder said. "After that it was smooth sailing." Until last year, NIST was still investigating other hypotheses, including whether the building's location on top of an electric substation played a critical role and whether 6000 gal. of diesel fuel used to power backup generators in the building directly weakened the columns. Both hypotheses were abandoned.

                      Sunder classified the report's conclusions as "simple, straightforward, elegant and going along with what was observed. I would say that the findings we have are incredibly conclusive that fire is why WTC 7 collapsed."
                      People making reports as events happen are credible witnesses. The transcripts were done well after the incident too. Remember, this was supposed to be an investigation. An investigation is done to determine the scientific proof – not the other way around.
                      Scientific proof - Buildings on fire and in the early stages of collapse will make noises that sound like explosions.

                      Why is that so hard to believe?

                      So, what are you saying? …that we don’t need to examine or test the physical evidence as long as we can come up with some other explanations of what could have caused them. Don’t you get how HUGE it is that all the evidence of WTC 7 was destroyed, NIST refused to test for explosive residue, and the former Chief of the Fire Science Division of NIST says we need a NEW INVESTIGATION?
                      The investigation was done. Evidence was collected. WTC7 failed because two very large skyscrapers fell on it and a fire that burned for SEVEN HOURS weakened an already overloaded and damaged structure.

                      At some point, common sense has to enter into the picture here.

                      I absolutely don’t want this to be true. It tears me up. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away though. It is my (our) duty as Americans to investigate this. We lost over 3,000 Americans, we are at war – we are sending thousands of soldiers to die over this, we are killing hundreds of thousands of humans, our economy is crumbling…with this much at stake – don’t you think we should have an investigation that follows National Standards? The very heads of the investigations, including members of the 9/11 Commission Report say the investigations were compromised, or severely flawed. So don’t YOU think we deserve the truth?
                      You obviously revel in this, I don't believe it tears you up at all.

                      Here is the truth: There is NO doubt (and you haven't even denied it) that the airliners hit the buildings and that they were flown by terrorists.


                      I am amazed at the apathy. With so many of our Brothers murdered, with so many who didn’t hear evacuation orders because of old Motorola radios and a no bid contract, with their remains taken to the dump, with so many Ground Zero workers sick, dying and being tossed aside, with Congress’ refusal to pass the James Zadroga Health and Compensation Act while they ignore the People and so arrogantly bail out the banks and there cronies….HOW ARE YOU NOT OUTRAGED AND DEMANDING ANSWERS AND ACCOUNTABILITY?
                      There is outrage about some things that happened as a result of 9/11.

                      The most recent outrage is that people are inserting bizarre and dishonest conspiracy theories.
                      I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                      "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                      "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                      Comment


                      • Building # 7 was not hit by a plane. Three towers were pulverized into dust. When have you ever seen a building collapse behave that way?




                        Originally posted by ThNozzleman View Post
                        Here's the truth: Two large jets slammed into the Towers, severely weakening the structures. Further weakened by intense fire, the remaining structural elements could not support the load any longer and began to collapse. Both buildings failed in a similar fashion because they shared identical design features, which were unique to both buildings. I have seen engineered steel beams and trusses twist, contort, and fail in commercial occupancies thousands of times smaller than the Towers, without damage caused by a collision with a jet or thousands of pounds of jet fuel adding to the fuel load. To think it was impossible for these buildings to behave the way they did after the attacks and ensuing fire is just plain ignorance. For someone (supposedly) educated in the behavior of fire and building construction to resort to promoting the nonsense you have in light of the evidence and facts available is just plain stupid.
                        Go away.

                        Comment


                        • Confirmed all to be true by numerous credible mainstream sources from Fox themselves before they were hijacked by CIA control, CNN,ABC,NBC,CBS, MSNBC, and over 500 Newspaper agencies from the Boston Globe to the Miami Herald and in books written by Senator Bob Graham, Pulitzer prize winners Peter Lance, Jim Bamford, Seymour Hersh,and outlined by the # 1 credible timeline source


                          --Blocked FBI investigations (several) leading up to 9/11 that would of stopped the attacks in many different areas especially reaching the top levels of government officials, not mentioned by the commission

                          -Why were many of the alleged hijackers doing flight training at U.S. naval schools, but not mentioned by the commission

                          - Why were the CIA's interrogation video tapes of terrorists destroyed just prior to 9/11 and not mentioned by the 9/11 commission

                          - Why film from over 85 cameras at and in and around the Pentagon, including cameras at the Citgo gas station facing clearly at the Pentagon alleged strike area, were never released -- and never mentioned by the 9/11 commission

                          --Obstruction of Justice by all agencies involved from the CIA to FBI to the NSA , not mentioned by the commission

                          --Covered up financing of the attacks by our # 1 ME allies (Saudis. and also Paki intel chief), not mentioned by the commission

                          --200 Israel spies arrested on 9/11, five arrested with explosives and box cutters in their van in NYC, not mentioned by the commission

                          --The CD like collapse of WTC-7 (which housed files of the CIA,FBI,and Enron,Wall street corruption cases) which was NOT hit by a plane, not mentioned by the commission nor did NIST test for that hyopthesis - which is amazingly absurd when it could of been the terrorists who bombed these buildings in THEORY. AGAIN, not mentioned by the commission

                          - Why was FEMA in NYC the day before 9/11 for a terrorism scenario - but not discussed by the Commission.

                          - Why only 4 wargames were briefly mentioned during the hearings when there were over 15 wargame exercise that depleted the use of F-16's that day, and never made it into the final report?

                          -Why were government officials WARNED not to fly the night before 9/11 and not mentioned by the commission

                          -Why did Rumsfeld announce on tv the night before 9/11 that $2.3 trillion dollars were missing from the Pentagon/Defense dept. budget but yet it was never mentioned again AFTER 9/11?

                          -Why was insider trading on the two plane company's involved (AA and United) prior to 9/11 betting on stocks to drop drastically, but not included in the final commission report when it's known to be the first thing the FBI investigates to predict crimes via foreknowledge detection
                          -Why was it never made public who the people involved in the insider trading?

                          - Why Dick Cheney lied when he said he got into the Emergency control bunker at 10am when TSA sec Norman Mineta (as witnessed by Counter terrorism chief Richard Clark) testified that Cheney was in there at 9:15 am running the scene (NORAD,NEADS,FAA,ATC,etc).

                          - Why Bush,Rice,Powell all were out of the Country or out of the State that day and Rumseld and Gen. Brig. Winfield had rookie stand in's for the entire 2 hours of the attacks, but returned when the attacks ended? Not mentioned by the 9/11 Commission

                          -What were the connections between Mohammad Atta and the Dutch drug smuggling flight school owners in Venice,Florida?

                          -Why were Atta and several alleged hijackers seen on a Sun Cruz Casino ship just prior to 9/11, owned by Jack Abramoff who was connected to the Dutch flight school owners and how did Abramoff get away with the murder of former Sun Cruz owner Gus Boulis (gunned down in his Lexus in Ft. lauderdale on US1 in early 2001), not mentioned by the commission despite Tampa and Miami newspaper reports (Miami Herald)

                          -Why were several of the hijackers reported ALIVE by UK newspapers and some of them interviewed post 9/11, but NOT mentioned by the commission

                          --Why steel was shipped out immediately from ground zero's rubble the morning of 9/11 without testing or investigating the steel, a federal crime -- not mentioned by the commission

                          -The few hundred witnesses, mostly firemen, who heard bombs going off in the basements,lobby,various other places at various times. ALL records & interviews that were gathered by NYPD --not mentioned by the commission nor anyone allowed to testify

                          - Bush and Cheney refusal to testify under oath despite the family steering committiees request for them to do so

                          - Bush and Cheney refusal to testify separately despite the family steering committiees request for them to do so

                          - Bush and Cheney refusal to testify in the commission in front of the camera's and family members, commissioners, and so forth despite the family steering committiees request for them to do so

                          - Bush and Cheney refusal to allow any recordings or transcripts of their testimony -- not mentioned by the commission despite the family steering committiees request for them to do so

                          - The three extremely different timelines given by NORAD, with talk of referring this variance to the dept. of justice -- but yet not approved by the commission in the end and not mentioned in the final report. Despite a key commissioner resigning in disgust

                          - Why the FAA destroyed all the tapes of recorded phone conversations to NEADS, NORAD,and the PEOTC when such actions are a Federal crime -- not mentioned AT ALL by the commission

                          - Why key whistleblowers for ABLE DANGER, and also from the FBI who had key information were gagged or fired?

                          - Why Rudy Guiliani told ABC News and Fox News that he was told the first WTC was going to collapse but no one told the firefighters to get out, including himself. Why no one asked or held Guiliani accountable on who fed him this information

                          There are hundreds more...........

                          Comment


                          • I guess we’re having a tough time communicating because our idea of professional is very different. I think this is a very serious issue, and deserves serious attention. When I scroll up these are many of the answers I find.
                            Typically, you take things out of context. You left out the the substantive replies to your wild allegations. Yes, there is plenty of sarcasm, because we fundamentally disagree on the premise. We are entitled to our opinions because we are as familiar with the information as you. Quit playing the victim card; it's a red herring.

                            You seem to complain a lot about name calling, even saying on your website that Pop. Mechanics resorted to "calling and smear tactics" without substantiating it. Now, that's smear tactics.

                            Many have slandered, but nobody cited any laws or National Standards that allow for the destruction of evidence, nobody named any other major fire in U.S. History that did an investigation with no physical evidence, nobody explained how we could rule out terrorists didn’t use explosives in addition to the strikes without testing for residue.
                            Slander? The conspiracists are the experts in that, I'm afraid. Were there flaws or shortcomings in NIST's work. Sure, they are human. But nothing substantive, nothing to the degree conspiracists allege.
                            Plenty of pjysical evidence was examined for the towers, which were hit by airplanes. You pursuit of WTC7 is a transparent attempt at an end around.

                            BTW, so you do think misguided muslim militants destroyed WTC? You think explosives could have been used along with the planes? Do you think the government was behind the crime? Why? And if nor involved in the event, why would "the government" cover it up?

                            Where am I screaming conspiracy? We are demanding a new investigation...

                            On the first page: "When we have that many brothers who have been on the inside saying we have 'domestic enemies'."
                            On your web page, you write, "I became obsessed researching things such as economies, who is in control of currencies, what causes depressions, who profits during war, etc. So many things kept pointing to 9/11."
                            " I’ve since learned there are major news stories concerning 9/11 that the media won’t cover... I’ve since learned about the whistleblowers that have been silenced."
                            "The same media, whose parent corporations, are some of the largest suppliers of weapons in this war... Why would a government so aggressively suppress truth and blatantly destroy evidence if there was nothing to hide?...
                            I’ve seen bodies burned beyond recognition, yet I have never found one that was wearing unburned clothing...dishonor to allow this to be covered up?" etc, etc. etc.

                            I dunno, sounds like you're talking about a conspiracy to me. You also link a site, that quotes people saying 9/11 "most heinous conspiracy in our country's history" and "I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen. Now some people will say that’s much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder."

                            (I find it tactically interesting that many of the conspiracists have jettisoned the word "conspiracy" in their alternative theories. They now apply it as "the official conspiracy theory." Apparently, from the above, work still needs to be done on the propaganda.

                            Yes, I have talked to many that were there, none of the one’s I have quoted from the transcripts though.
                            How many? Yet you don't attribute any of the information? You ramble after that, without any specifics. "I have heard many of their horrific experiences." Doesn't tell me anything to support your position.


                            If they would like to speak with me, I would gladly speak with any of them.
                            Ever wonder why they don't?

                            I have read Vincent Dunn’s articles, but no I have not spoken with him about this (I have met him at a couple of classes).
                            I don't care about how many classes. The answer is "no," right? So there you are. With Vincent Dunn. An influential national figure in the fire service. And you don't ask him a dang thing about this "very serious issue" and a solemn oath you took to defend the Constitution Have I got that right?

                            The fact is practically everything you have is from the internet. Nothing wrong with that; me too. But as ChiefKN suggests, apply some common sense, as well.

                            Speaking of ChiefKN, I wish I had read his response to you previous post before I looked into it's claims. Would have saved me some time. I should have known your reference and "quote" of James Quintiere was another half-truth.

                            The only fact that I could find where Quintere specifically disagrees with NIST is over the degree of insulation of the WTC trusses. Quintere thinks they were under insulated. The implication is if there is a conspiracy, it is to not hold the builders accountable for their insufficiency in that department.

                            "Although Dr. Quintiere was strongly critical of NIST’s conclusions and its investigatory process, he made it clear he was not a supporter of theories that the Twin Towers were brought down by pre-planted explosives."


                            The fact Dr. Quintiere is calling for a NEW INVESTIGATION makes me highly suspicious of the NIST report.
                            As ChiefKN stated, "I wouldn't expect everyone to agree."
                            And had they, it would be -- gulp -- a conspiracy.

                            So there's really no way the truth can convince you that those buildings went down pretty much as stated in the official studies and reports.

                            What are you doing to help all the ground zero workers in need?
                            At every opportunity I confront conspiracists who are trying to ride heroes' coattails to further a narrow and repugnant political ideaology.

                            I am amazed at the apathy. With so many of our Brothers murdered... because of old Motorola radios and a no bid contract...
                            Radio communication problems is a completely different issue. And I wouldn't describe the reaction in NYC or in other departments as apathetic. At least from where I sit. Others are more capable than you or I to comment on this.

                            ...so arrogantly bail out the banks and there (sic) cronies...
                            I need clarification here because this phrase is used by some as a euphemism. "Banks" in general, or specific banks? And who are the cronies, specifically?
                            Last edited by LtTony; 04-15-2009, 11:03 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Were here! Deal with it!

                              Originally posted by Dickey View Post
                              Again, ignore this troll and he will go away....


                              ....so will this thread.
                              I know this thread takes you to a "scary place" Cap. Here, take my hand and lets work together to make that mean ol' Erik Lawyer and his frightening theories go away. Just click your heels together and repeat after me...

                              "Theres no place like home"
                              "Theres no place like home"
                              "Theres no place like home"

                              When Einstein was asked what he thought was the most important question that we could ask, he replied; "The most important question we can ask is - Is the universe a friendly place?"

                              Well, I'm here to tell you that should you decide to pull your head out of the sand and accept the fact that the world is not exactly as it seems, that our politicians tell really big lies, and that there is such a thing as real evil at the upper levels of power in this world; Your universe will seem like a less friendly place. It's scary but true, and I'm sorry that the truth is so hard to swallow. I'm sorry that your perception of the world is so distorted, and you find the rosy colored glasses so difficult to remove.

                              This isn't Disneyland. This isn't the "Happiest Place On Earth".

                              It is, however, your right to remain asleep and uninformed if you so choose.

                              All I ask though, is that you get it straight with regard to who is doing the trolling here!

                              Erik Lawyer was not a member here when this thread started.

                              YOU DID THE TROLLING! NOT US! YOU JUST HAPPENED TO TROLL UP THE "CONSPIRACY THEORISTS", WHO ARE NOW HERE TO RESPOND. DEAL WITH IT CAP!

                              We didn't just join the site to now immediately "Go Away". Quit calling for us to do that, it just makes you look childish.
                              Lance Fisher
                              Seattle Fire Department
                              Station #28
                              Ladder 12

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
                                Actually no one really cares except idiots like you.

                                Or moonbat.
                                You're one pathetic hypocrite.
                                Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
                                Gee name calling. It's junior high school time.
                                Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
                                And it's all being kept in check by our Kenyan born President. Just ask moonbat.
                                You really are a substandard excuse for a human being.

                                BTW, have you figured out why Hollister's case was dismissed yet? You've had plenty of time. What is your excuse?
                                Last edited by txgp17; 04-14-2009, 01:37 PM.
                                The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

                                Comment

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