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  • #16
    Fire Protection is a LOCAL issue. I didn't vote for George Bush to be MAYOR of PODUNK PA, I voted for PRESIDENT of the USA. [/B][/QUOTE]

    It's attitudes like this that is the reason that the fire rate in the US is the highest among all of the industrialized nations. We burn more property, loose more money, and kill and injure more people than any other 1st world county. All of this affects things like the GNP and health insurance rates.

    IF fire protection is a local issue, then so is education! Education is the responsibility of the states NOT the federal government. Should we leave education solely to the responsibility of local school boards without funding assistance of the federal government? Of course not. Education is essential to the competativeness and defense of our nation. It is a key issue to our continued survival and key to our democracy (yes, I know, we're a REPUBLIC but thats beyond most of these nimrods).

    How about law enforcement? LOCAL issue too. Yet, we spend billions on public safety to the extent of paying for LOCAL law enforcement officers from federal dollars.

    The fire service is about to take it on the kisser for their support of Gore

    Comment


    • #17
      IF fire protection is a local issue, then so is education! Education is the responsibility of the states NOT the federal government.

      YES!!!

      Should we leave education solely to the responsibility of local school boards without funding assistance of the federal government?

      YES!!! But the government will also have to quit confiscating money for it from our paychecks.

      Of course not.

      Man just when I thought we were on the same page...

      Education is essential to the competativeness and defense of our nation.

      Agreed, but local control and financing of government schools is the only way to go. If the schools do not perform then those kids won't keep up with the rest of the kids and you can adjust your schools "priorities" immediately. Look at home schooling, those kids continually out perform government indoctrinated kids. Why? Local control, as local as you can get.

      Get the feds involved and it's a convoluted mess. Even at the 6% level (from what I've heard) they currently fund.

      (yes, I know, we're a REPUBLIC but thats beyond most of these nimrods).

      Because they went to government schools and don't do their own research, they just buy in to whatever someone they think is smarter than they are says. I saw an interview with a US congresswoman from Texas the other day and she claimed we were a democracy and that Gore was the democratically elected president. Can you believe that?

      How about law enforcement? LOCAL issue too. Yet, we spend billions on public safety to the extent of paying for LOCAL law enforcement officers from federal dollars.

      Two (or more) wrongs don't make a right...

      Comment


      • #18
        I agree with Mongofire here. These are local issues just as much as Fire suppression is a local issue. Why is Law Enforcement so much more special then we are? Is it just because the majority of firefighters nation-wide are "uneducated, backwoods, red-neck" vollies? I have heard so many reasons why the local government can't help us it is not even funny. If you think I am any of the above then you are in for a rude awakening!

        [This message has been edited by cpr4u (edited 03-02-2001).]

        Comment


        • #19
          By all means, ABOLISH the Department of Education. The Feds should not be in our Schools...the States should be ensuring everyone gets a decent K-12 education.

          Yes, the Feds have a role in Education -- they provided the seed money for many great schools (The Land Grant Universities) that support R&D we all benifit from. They have a role in Police -- the FBI, nationwide Criminal databases. They even have a role for hte Fire Service developing leaders & doing R&D. They don't have role funding any of those locally.

          So what is wrong with State & Local taxes rising?

          Who do you think will listen to you more, your Congressmen who has 400,000 voters, your State Rep listening to 40,000 voters, or your local Town Councilor listening to 4,000 voters?

          Who do you think understands the needs of their community more? The Congressman living in Washington who has to fly home, The State Rep who has a long drive home, or the City Councilor who lives next door?

          Comment


          • #20
            If a dollar needs to be spent, then the dollar should be spent.

            The problem stems from WHERE the dollar goes, and who says how it gets spent. Education, Law Enforcement, Fire Protection (or prevention, or education) doesn't matter.

            The bottom line is the closer the money stays to "home", the more likely that it will be spent wisely.

            What President Bush is saying (and many of us are arguing) is that it's not the FEDERAL government's job.

            Now: You make $10. You send $3 to Washington. Washington sends $1 back to you (and one dollar to someone clear across the country - probably a welfare queen - or welfare corporation?) and wastes $1 paying itself.

            With a tax cut: You make $10. You send $1 to Washington - who cares where it goes - (should be to the military, and not much else). Your local gov't. takes $1 for local use. Yes, that's a tax increase. But your local community still has that $1 it always had. And if it needs another, you're still no worse off than you were. And all the money stays home. So it gets spent where it's needed. Not on some bridge or ditch or "gov't study" boondoggle or junket.

            BTW, the "recovery" started in '83. For those who aren't old enough to remember - 1979 - Jimmy Carter - double digit inflation, unemployment, and interest rates. Reagan got the taxes cut (he didn't cut them, Congress did - only Congress has the power to tax) and the recovery started. Everything since then (Bush the elder is closer to Clinton than Reagan in this repect) has had the effect of slowing it back down.

            And, no disrespect, but fire depts, as with all "public" functions, are a DRAIN on the economy. Never mind that you all also pay taxes, individually it's true, but corporately it's insignificant. What makes the economy go are those of us who work in private enterprise, be it manufacturing, service, etc. You earn money, and you spend money, and you pay taxes on what you earn and what you spend.

            On the other hand:

            I MAKE money. (Yes, there is a difference between earning and making). I know some of you are volunteers that have other private sector jobs. Some of you are probably even entrepeneurs, and will know what I'm talking about. But I just want you all to keep some things in perspective.

            I am a partner in a trucking company. Our equipment inventory exceeds $5,000,000. We grossed over $100,000,000 last year. We purchased $1,000,000 in new trucks. We paid $500,000 in FUEL taxes. Not income taxes. Not property taxes. Lot license fees or plates. Just FUEL!

            Believe me when I say the numbers you all are talking about are INSIGNIFICANT. TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. Like I said in earlier posts - I personally (as in I wrote the check!) paid enough taxes to buy your depts. next ladder truck (or two).

            If I was your neighbor - and I didn't have to pay that tax - what else could I be doing with that money? I'm not rich. And I don't want to be rich. I'd spend it. And someone (some business) would benefit. As would every govt. entity that could tax it along the way.

            I'm just trying to point out that the higher up it goes, the less likely that it's going to be put to some beneficial use.

            Comment


            • #21
              NO, NO, NO!

              The primary responsibility of fire suppression DOES belong to state and local governments! Nevertheless, there remains a significant role of the federal government in providing assistance through federal funding and technical support!

              Am I contradicting myself? No, read on.

              I doubt anyone would argue with me that the BEST place for planning and implementing fire protection policy is at the LOCAL level. After all, the fire problem in Walla Walla, Washington is NOT the same fire problem as in New York City. Decisions of fire protection are best left to those directly affected by the problem...local citizens.

              However, the federal government DOES have a vested interest in fire protection from two points (1) the financial impact of fire, and (2) the safety and welfare of its citizens.

              According to statistics from the US Fire Administration, the estimated direct property loss related to fire is in the area of $10 billlion dollars annually. The total cost (direct losses, the cost of fire departments, built-in fire protection, insurance overhead, and other expenditures related to fire protection) is much higher.

              The total cost of fire to society is staggering - over $100 Billion per year! This includes all of the total costs of fire protection I mentioned. This is an enourmous number, and is on the order of 1 to 2 percent of the gross-domestic product. Thus, from a monetary viewpoint, fire ranks among the significant NATIONAL problems.

              Since the cost of fire is so great the federal government should, and DOES, have a role is funding the fire service. Our problem is that fires are generaly small (in comparision to natural disasters) so they receive very little attention from the public or elected officials. But the cumulative costs of fire are stagering! To lower OUR costs we need to have the feds fund our departments particularly with regard to prevention!

              Comment


              • #22
                Just being a NATIONAL problem does not make it a FEDERAL problem!

                Technical support and national coordination for natural/manmade disasters? Great place for a federal role.

                Buying equipment to protect a single community or county? Bad use of federal funds.

                All the money thrown at buying fire trucks and hiring firefighters isn't going to make an appreciable difference on our nation's fire loss in lives or dollars. They're coldpatch thrown on a pothole -- the bad roadbed is still there.

                You fix problems in two ways -- Engineer a solution or change social behaviors.

                Deployment AND enforcement of better building codes will have a significant impact. Since quasi-Federal agencies control most mortgage markets, that's a clear place the Federal Gov't could move to mandate near-universal residential sprinklers. With the double benifit over the long, long term (a century or so) it will reduce the overall need for fire suppression funding saving the gov't money in the future. Most manufactured housing crosses state lines, so there's another place the Federal Gov't could constitutionally order sprinklers.

                Second way is to address American's carelessness with fire, but I suspect like our levels of violence, it's in society and isn't going to change anytime soon.

                Neither one requires significant Federal dollars to accomplish. Both will have far more impact in the long term than any piece of equipment someone buys.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mongofire_99:
                  Name's William, not Larry and you failed to answer the questions and back up your statements with some facts.

                  And you won't....

                  [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 03-02-2001).]
                  Hmmm... spells like Larry, talks like Larry and even demands proof for every single little detail like Larry... If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck... no, wait, that was Daddy Bush that said that... right before he said, "Read my lips, no new Taxes".

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    All this BS and still no answers...

                    even demands proof for every single little detail like Larry

                    Which of these details are little? The US Constitution? The lies about Reagan? The lies about the recovery that the democrats have built their whole case around? Which ones? Be a man and tell us.

                    I'm wrong plenty and I won't hide behind not answering the questions when I am. I've said it before and I'll say it again - show me with facts, not a weak unsupportable opinion, where I'm wrong and I'll eat my words.

                    You don't have anything useful to add? Maybe you could answer the questions since the poli-sci major can't or won't simply because the facts do not support his or her beliefs.

                    Also, and I don't know if I'm reading it right or not, if you go back and read his posts and editorials it seems to me that Larry and I disagree on this issue.

                    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 03-02-2001).]

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mongofire_99:
                      All this BS and still no answers...

                      even demands proof for every single little detail like Larry

                      Which of these details are little? The US Constitution? The lies about Reagan? The lies about the recovery that the democrats have built their whole case around? Which ones? Be a man and tell us.

                      I'm wrong plenty and I won't hide behind not answering the questions when I am. I've said it before and I'll say it again - show me with facts, not a weak unsupportable opinion, where I'm wrong and I'll eat my words.

                      You don't have anything useful to add? Maybe you could answer the questions since the poli-sci major can't or won't simply because the facts do not support his or her beliefs.

                      Also, and I don't know if I'm reading it right or not, if you go back and read his posts and editorials it seems to me that Larry and I disagree on this issue.

                      [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 03-02-2001).]

                      Well whatever Mongo's name actaully is Well he seems to disagree with everyone on this issue. Mongo were you even in favor of the fire act?, Since when are the Feds not allowed to try and help out the States, Isn't that the whole reason why we have a Federal Goverment?. So let me guess the Federal Goverment is not allowed to help out the California with our power crisis, What should be done with the FIRE Act is the money should be given to the states to issue to in grants to fire departments that apply, I have to disagree with everything Mongo has said

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Well he seems to disagree with everyone on this issue

                        You might want to read this thread again, several posters here agree with me. One person even said and I quote "I agree with Mongofire here."

                        were you even in favor of the fire act?

                        No

                        Since when are the Feds not allowed to try and help out the States

                        I didn't say they couldn't help them out. Some areas they do need to help and it's a federal issue. Foriegn border control for example, or on occassion when a state problem can bleed over into other states (a large forest fire, hurricane, earthquake, your power crisis could be one, but we'll get to that).

                        Isn't that the whole reason why we have a Federal Goverment?

                        When looked at it loosly, yes. But I beleive in states rights over the feds. If the feds didn't take so much of our money, then states could have it and this problem is solved. (FYI Texas doesn't have a state tax. We do have a tax on the stupid though - really, we call it a lottery )

                        So let me guess the Federal Goverment is not allowed to help out the California with our power crisis

                        In my opinion, no. CA power problem comes from years of idiocy in regulation as a result of the extreme environmentalism and the NIMBY attitude. Please explain why years of idiocy in this area is suddenly everyone elses problem.

                        What should be done with the FIRE Act is the money should be given to the states to issue to in grants to fire departments that apply

                        If you really believe this, then please explain why you think the feds should have taken it out of your pocket in the first place. Why not have it taken at the state level? And explain how much or what method you would use to divy it up.

                        I have to disagree with everything Mongo has said

                        If that's true then that's OK, but everything? Do you then disagee that the federal government should be operated in accordance with the US Constitution? If so, then how should it be operated? By the whims of the majority (AKA mob rule).

                        Which facts that I posted do you disagree with?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Mongo,

                          I can't disagree with that, and quite frrankly I hope that he sticks to it.

                          For all of you guys out there who think that Bush is an idiot just keep on voting the way your union card tells ya.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Sure, Bush is an idiot. He only flew high performance fighters in the ANG, and has two Master's degrees.

                            algore is the one who flunked out of law school, and divinity school, and journalism school, and....

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Does someone come by and pee in the liberals Wheaties every morning that causes them to be this way?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                daysleeper47
                                you posted earlier
                                >Did you ever think that that increase in spending by the Democrats you mentioned is what stimulates this economy and keeps her pumping?<

                                I just caught on to what some call economic expansion. A liberal view of economic is in reality expansion of the Fed. Or am I miss understanding you?

                                You continue:
                                >If the government doens't spend, in the long run, no one does.<

                                Quite the contrary, the more the government spends the less everyone else has to spend! Beside that the government (Fed) doesen't have any money of it's own, it must get it from the citizens. Coould someone, pray tell when, it became noble or rightious, the act of theif simply because 51 guys out of 100 thinks it is the thing to do?

                                You conclude:
                                >I am all for an increase in military spending, but I am also for welfare, humanities projects....<

                                Take them (welfare, and humanities projects) to your local people ie: churches I seem to remember you mentioning something about your worn out bible, what does it tell ya?



                                [This message has been edited by tinner (edited 03-05-2001).]

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