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  • #16
    The national media highlights negative issues because if they tried to highlight the positive issues, there would not be enough time in the day to show them all. And no one would be interested in wathing another "positive thing". We learn from our mistakes. Look at history. There are things people did in the past which are no longer done because it either was wrong or ineffecient. So it is unfortunate that this person lost his life, but if a procedure needs to be changed, change it for the future.


    • #17
      I really dislike posts like this. If you have been in this business ANY length of time and have gotten over the invincible ego phase new guys get you would never post such a slam on another department.

      Dateline is famous for it's biased stories. They are routinely presented from only one point of view and tend to conveniently leave out a lot of the facts (as has been pointed out here by several people).

      NO ONE has the right to make such harsh judgements without knowing all the facts.

      It seems here that it might just be the case that the FD had no responsiblity, jurisdiction or even training or equipment to handle such an incident (if the PD really does the water rescue).

      Remember, things are different everywhere, some departments simply don't handle these incidents, some are bound by SOP's that may be different from your own and frankly none of us knows what mitigating circumstances may have existed that did not appear on the 'video'.

      When you judge others harshly, remember that it may be you in that situation one day - would you appreciate being second guessed by someone not even remotely familiar with the situation?

      Susan Bednar
      Forsyth Rescue Squad (Captain)
      Griffith Volunteer FD


      • #18
        I posted on another forum with the same topic yesterday? It did look badly for everyone involved, no doubt, but please don't argue with the facts. Yes they could of, would of, should of had a boat in the water, but for those of you who are all for jumping in the water I have this for you. Would you run up and try to take the gun from the someone trying to shot themselves? People who are serious about taking their own life would care for a minute to take you with them. On the issue of the boat, I think someone stated earlier that the boat was on another call. How may times have you been on another call and had to miss a first in assignment. Yes we are here to help, but no one said we could save everyone in every situation. Stand proud in Philly brothers and hold your heads up high. If I remember correctly, most of the same people that have posted here, were wanting a public hanging for the homeless people in Worcester because our brothers died trying to save them!


        [This message has been edited by JAMESBENNETT (edited 02-14-2001).]


        • #19
          Those of you bashing Pilly:

          You make me friggin sick. You sit there dying a slow death in your easy chairs watching a liberal and biased trashbag show, and then you make opinions and assumptions on how another fire department should operate.
          OSIRIS500 Wrote:

          The man died because of the lack of action from the emergency personell from Philly FD and PD.

          Who the [email protected]$# are you to make that statement?? Was that printed in the medical examiners report?? You weren't there...christ, the closest guy to this incident from this forum was "in the area" and he defended PFD.

          It's clowns like you all that are not only helping to bring down the fire service..but our whole freakin' country. What is this need to place blame on all unfortunate mishaps that may or may not be accountable to someone?

          I feel for the guys that have to work with you jokers...I couldn't imagine working with someone who would try and rat me out in a heartbeat, especially without all the facts.

          I'm sure that if all you talented IC's, firefighters, water rescue specialists and EMT's were all there instead of PFD you would have made all the right decisions and MR. Jumper would be alive today...yeah right.

          Nothing but a bunch of Monday mornin' quarterbacks on this forum.

          Get a life....Engineforlife


          • #20
            I usually bash engine for life but

            OSIRIS500, you are obviously a f&cking moron. You arent smart enough to know when the media stretches the truth to make a "STORY"

            Who do you think you are bashing them you miserable bastard.

            Go back to the county to whatever crappy station you are in. When you become the god of the fire service then open your supid mouth.

            Its funny that you have the balls to comment on something that you werent at because you were on a medic local playin with yourself.

            You should be ashamed of yourself...everyone who bashed PFD for what they saaw on TV.. You are all a bunch of blowjobs


            • #21
              Are you really that dumb?Mouthing off like that.
              First of all,the media can twist a story anyway they choose.
              Second,get the REAL facts.
              And third,don't slam Brothers/Sisters,that's a golden rule.


              • #22
                Yeah, shame on you for believing what you see happening in real time on TV. How dare you think anything or ask what if or why or what is going on. Perception is reality to the public but to us we know no matter what happened that there just had to be more to it, ask OJ!

                Wait for the spin next time before you comment! That way you can confirm you were right the first time.

                You hear these stories about ambulances stopping for donuts with patients in the back and think that is stupid.

                But the spin tells you they were hungry. But the guys at the station said they all had a huge breakfast together. The medic might have been a diabetic and forgot the glucose sticks were on the rig. But i turns out he wan't diabetic. Or he/'d been working 7 days straight without sleep. Then you read he'd only been on shift 3 hours and it was his first call.

                Why was everybody standing around? What you want action?

                So the life guard was the hero. When Air Florida hit the bridge in DC people asked why didn't the firefighters go in isn't that their job? Of course it wasn't that is what all the civilians stopped their cars and got out for!

                You can't in anyway think an LODD was probably the firefighters and in many cases their supervisors own fault.

                Come on he's a good kid, 19 years old why shouldn't he be allowed to drive a 60,000 lb ladder truck at 20 mph over the speed limit, heck he's here during the day when no one else is? EVOC and CDL's are over rated and expensive. We've done this for years.

                That being 150 lbs over weight and 65 years old on the fire ground could result in a heart attack. The fact he's been on coronary medicine for several years and has high blood pressure doesn't mean we can't let a nice guy help out. Heck he's only got 3 years until he retires.

                That busting an intersection at 45 mph and not wearing your belt couldn't possibly be the driver and the officer's own fault. That car with the green light should have seen us coming and stopped.

                Anyone could have done it, gee who'd of thought the ladder would fall over if you don't use the outriggers, I was only raising it for a minute. It was low bid anyway we cut the anti gravity switch.

                Dang there was only four of us on the tip of 200 lbs tip load ladder and it broke, gee they build lousy ladder trucks. You can't avoid that or express an opinion. You don't know exactly what went on. They did a lot of good things before that.

                When you read of court cases where the FD covered up the real cause of a fatal accident, how dare the jury payout to the dead person. When the paperwork had all been changed and witnesses ignored? That's not right, don't they know we are heros?

                You can't bring charges against an officer for abandoning his crew inside and taking the radio with him and then not reporting they were missing. It was there fault, not his.

                So the crew was free lancing and got dead. They were sincere (sincerely wrong) in what they were doing. Heck everytime we are told some one is inside they always are. We don't have time to look at the risk and make a life and death decision like that.

                How dare you judge someone else's judgement, you weren't there! So fire was through the roof on arrival and the truss roof was supporting HVAC equipment and the building had been closed for hours, we're an agressive department. You can't question the call to go inside. Heck there could have been a family of 12 sleeping in there, just like the other 75 families we've found in closed for the evening fully involved businesses this month. You can't question anything, no two fires are ever the same and there isn't even a single thing common between them, ever!

                75 year old guys are fun to have around they only represent 5% of the fire deaths each year, who could have possibly figured they'd croke at a fire?

                So you run over a firefighter driving through heavy smoke at grass fire once in a while, that guy should have been able to see and hear you coming. It isn't the crews fault accidents happen.

                So we roll 7 to 10 tankers a year that were homemade by the firefighters in the station driven by our buddies, think of all the money we saved building it ourselves! Can't wait to build the next one with the insurance check.

                I'm going to stand out here and direct traffic, I've got my turnouts on and they better do what I say, I have authority, who'd of figured the car would run in to you? Unavoidable, couldn't have been predicted.

                Saying I'd do the same exact thing again even though I know the outcome last time I did it is the manly thing, how dare you think you can learn from an incident or fatality!

                Everyone knows you leave when the air bottle alarm goes off you've got a quarter bottle of air left. There isn't any way anyone could have known that if it took 23 minutes to get the alarm bell to sound that you'd only have 7 minutes to get back out the same way you went in. It was just unfortunate. Couldn't have forseen that.

                What was Freid talking about when he said after 20 minutes (the first air pack alarm) of active fire involvement in older buildings, withdrawl companies, and Francis thinking when he said any invlovement in a truss space or suspected involvement should require evacuation? Those things don't apply hear, we're unique. You know it is just co--inky--dink that all these recent fatalities occurred well after the time the first air bottle alarms went off.

                So command only does accountability every hour, you can hold your breath that long?

                How dare the public expect anything!

                We need to honor everyone who screws up big time they are all heros!

                Don't you guys know we are all victims!

                FREE OJ. NICOLE did it!


                • #23
                  How long did it take to come up with that????????

                  How long did it take to type????????

                  How do you really feel???????????????


                  • #24
                    I'm not sure!

                    I feel we are in Japan and no matter how the plane crashes it is never the pilots fault because we have to save his pride.


                    • #25
                      As a resident of Philadelphia, I feel like I should comment on this. Please understand that much of what I am about to say is hearsay, heard at kitchen tables of various Philadelphia companies. Perhaps I should just reserve comment, but this whole thing had left a dark stain upon the PFD; which I believe is grossly unjust. I apologize in advance if anything is untrue.

                      -Members of the PFD have no formal training on swift water rescue, other than on the job expierience or training taken off duty, with the exception of Rescue Company 1. (and I understand that their training is minimal)

                      -Marine Company 2 is stationed on the same river (The Schuykill River for you out of towners...say "skool kill") However it is stationed approximately 7-8 miles downriver, and even if it could have reached the scene in a timely fashion (top speed is approx 12mph) it couldn't get there, because the draft of the boat exceeds the available depth.

                      -Marine Company 1 is stationed on the Delaware River, and would have taken every bit of 1.5 hours to have gotten there (again, draft of the boat exceeding available depth)

                      -The Phila. PD has the "Authority", the responsibility, or whatever you want to call it for handling swiftwater rescues.

                      -The Phila PD does have units stationed at various places on the Schuykill, however, The "in water" boats are all downstream of where this incident occured. You must understand that this incident occured in an area that is "above" several dams- unreachable by "in water" boats. The PD does maintain several units equipped with inflatables, however rumor has it that due to budget constraints they are not manned year round and only during peak "summer " times. I believe this event occured in the spring.

                      -Rumor has it that the PD believed the man to be armed, and advised ALL personnel to stay AWAY. This also included when he fell in the water.

                      -Rescue 1 does carry some swiftwater equipment- however, rumor has it that they were using a spare rig that day, and they can't carry everything on the spare piece.

                      What occured is definetly a shame. However, where was Dateline when units of the PFD in Southwest Philadelphia made HUNDREDS of rescues in floodwaters that occured virtually instantaneously during Hurricane Floyd?? There is plenty of news footage of this incident that they could have used to present a positive sidebar. Or where was Dateline when a pier housing a nightclub collapsed into the Delaware River, sending over 100 people into the largest freshwater port in the US?? Over 100 people went in the dark murky depths, in an area where the river is approx. 3/4 of a mile wide, with shipping channels, and lots of pleasure craft traffic- and yet there were only 3 fatalities......Where was Dateline that night??

                      -Those of you who question the PFD- Why don't you call 215 686 1776, and ask for Fire Commissioner Hairston's office, and ask him why he returned over 2 Million dollars from his FY 2000 budget back to the city?? Why not use some of that money to train the members on swiftwater rescue?? Ask him if his personal agenda is more important???? The more money he turns back in, the better it looks for him....I hope for the sake of the Baltimore FD that he doesn't get the job there....The man just really doesnt care about anyone or anything that does not affect Harold Hairston. Ask him why are the members using low-bid gloves?? Ask him why does the Philadelphia FD, the 5th largest FD in the US rank far behind the vast majority of FD's in the US in the area of exposure control and universal precautions???

                      Before you pass judgement, come see what the members in Philly have to deal with. Yes, it's true that every city, town, and village will have money problems. But most of those places will tell the fire chief "We care, but there just isn't money".....Deal with it when you are told "We dont have any money and even if we did we dont give a sh*t." (knowing that there IS money because you are holding a copy of the budget in your hand...)

                      I invite anyone to come and buff Philly with me- I will take you to several stations and you can sit down and have a cup of coffee with Philly's finest- if they aren't watching their cars out in the lot because the city won't fix the fence, or if they aren't out on the 90th first response of the morning for an OD....

                      I'm done rambling.....

                      "Loyalty above all else, except honor."

                      [This message has been edited by ArmyTruckCompany (edited 02-14-2001).]


                      • #26
                        Hey osiris500,,,,,329?????????


                        • #27
                          Didn't see the show, don't know all the details, so maybe I shouldn't say anything.

                          But having been to a couple of "suicides in progress" myself, in this situation and with the zero amount of training the PFD sounds like they get for water rescue and probably zero training for suicide negotiations, I can think of 2 places I'd rather not be...

                          On the edge of a bridge over a river with some guy that wants to die.

                          In the water 250' off shore with some guy that wants to die.


                          • #28
                            To clear things up: I stated in my first post that it was a lack of action by both FD and PD.I did not place all blame on the PFD. It is my opinion that they(PFD and PD) handled the situation poorly, and I am entitled to my opinion. Just by watching the tape you can see they were ill prepared for such a case. I apologize because my intent was not to bash they entire PFD or PD, I'm sure they do a good job. Just like any department the mishaps of a few give the whole dept a black eye. My post was to get responses of the actions of those units that responded that day not the entire dept, and to bring up another similiar case a couple of years ago on the Woodrow Wilson bridge incident they had a jumper( I believe he had a gun) Who held up traffic because he wanted to jump. The police shot him off of the bridge into the water, But guess what was waiting for the man at the bottom A boat! Just my opinion.


                            • #29
                              ArmyTruck, awesome post brother, gives the spin that the Monday morning quarterbacks didn't think about.


                              • #30
                                I agree with much that has been said by everyone - on both sides. It is difficult to comment if you weren't there. It is also difficult when there is on-scene video. None of us have to worry about this (unless we were there) - the courts and 12 people (who were also not there) will will sort it out for us.

                                The important thing is that there is clearly a problem associated with responses of these types. It is in everyone's interest to learn from the event. Is there a gap in training? Poor multi-agency coordination? Resource problems? On-scene/IC problems? No system is perfect and things happen. The real tragedy would be if no one learned anything from this so that there is a better response next time. (Maybe the scrutiny will push some people to take action).

                                It will be a sad day when we can't take a critical look at what we do and be honest. Sometimes we do it in private and other times we have an audience.


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