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  • #31
    //A seperate question for you LHS. If I have a station with 6 engines, do I have to have 6 sets of spare hose (one for each), or would a single set get credit for all 6?

    Yes, 6 sets of hose.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by LHS*:
      "Instead of carrying a hose jacket that can cost $40 you can carry an additional 2 ½” or 3” hose clamp and one additional section of 2 ½” or 3 "hose. It accomplishes the same task so it gets full credit. "
      Now there is fine example of a genius at work!!! Instead of carrying a $40 hose jacket, let's buy another hose clamp AND 50 more feet of hose, it's only money.



      ------------------
      Richard Nester
      Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

      Comment


      • #33
        //Now there is fine example of a genius at work!!! Instead of carrying a $40 hose jacket, let's buy another hose clamp AND 50 more feet of hose, it's only money.

        Richard Nester FROM THE Orrville (OH) Fire Dept COULD IT BE SOME DEPARTMENTS CARRY TWO CLAMPS OTHERS HAVE SPARES OR OLD ONES LAYING AROUND THAT WOULD RESULT IN NO COST CREDIT?


        Comment


        • #34
          Dang, sleep all day and see what you miss...

          Richard, here's Texas' FSRS info. Check it out and let us know if it's the same as yours.

          Fire Suppression Rating Schedule

          Copyright 1980, Insurance Services Office

          Edition 6-80 (I would expect this to be different from yours if there is any differences in the requirements between Texas and Ohio)


          Comment


          • #35
            Rich,
            You said your department is a class 5, but what is your class over 1000' away from a hydrant? I am assuming your district is not all hydrants since y'all also run a tanker.

            Also, could you please tell me what is different about your ISO rating schedule?

            Buck

            Comment


            • #36
              Considering all that's been said and the Rich's refusal to provide any additional information, it seems that the only difference between Ohio ISO and everywhere else is that:

              1. they are required to carry their spare hose on the truck

              and

              2. they get full credit for a nozzle that will only do half the job.

              Comment


              • #37
                Mongo,
                Go take a look at the Apparatus Innovation forum on Telesquirts. Good exhange of info until LHS comes along in his wise a** attitude and starts taking shots at others comments. In fact, go to any Forum where he posts and you'll see the same thing.
                One Forum someone's looking for some data on fire growth. I gave the guy numerous real sources of data. LHS shows up, calls fast fire growth an "urban myth." Now he's an expert on fire growth. However, go look at his posts, not a single real source of data -not a one. How does he end it "in reality everybody knows that fires don't grow that fast." Oh really, I ask him to take a look at the MO church fire on the FH homepage a week or so - how did that fire get so big. Avoids the question, tells us that the department spent money on sprinklers or something. ANSWER THE QUESTION - how did it get so big? Or better yet, the NIOSH report on the Houston ff LODD at the McDonalds a couple years ago came out. Let's here LHS tell young fire fighters on this Forum how those firefighters died. They died because the fire raced through the concealed space in those trusses and that bldg was ready to collapse when the 1st engine arrived. What's the response time in Houston for the 1st engine - not long. Come on LHS, spin it for us - tell us all how fire really grows.

                Young firefighters and their young families need us to TELL THE DAMN TRUTH so they can protect themselves.
                They don't need some fire truck special interest telling them that fires don't really grow that fast and that the fire will wait while the Fallon special responds from 50 miles away.
                I made it point long ago not to get personnel on these Forums, but LHS is a definite exception. His special interest can cost firefighters their lives and leave their children without a father or mother.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Gee Mongo, Having trouble staying on topic. Fell free to attack me.

                  //shots at others comments.

                  So sorry, if come on and tell me based at looking at my web page this is the way it is I'll tell you you are wrong. If yo post rail on a squirt are too low and I post NFPAas a source then that is a fact.

                  //looking for some data on fire growth.

                  Oh, I didn't post NFPA Almanac? Fire Protection Handbook? How soon you forget.

                  //"urban myth."

                  Doubles in size every 30 seconds has no support.

                  //, I ask him to take a look at the MO church fire

                  YOu mean you made a smart *** reply attacking another department. So in the relm of the other department the answer was the fire wouldn't have occurred because they follow the fire code. The MO fire did their own thing.

                  //Avoids the question, tells us that the department spent money on sprinklers or something.

                  Go read it. I said last year they used their own budget and sprinkled 50% of the commercial buiildings in the their district. So no they would not have had a fiere like that.

                  //the McDonalds a couple years ago came out. Let's here LHS tell young fire fighters on this Forum how those firefighters died.

                  Very simple the Uniform Fire Code applies in that city, does it allow a building that size not to be sprinkled? The answer is politics. Follow the code, no fire.

                  //How they died, they went in a building that MR Brannigan and others(that is another source) say don't be under or over a heavily involved truss. So one has to ask, was anything learned by the fire service at Hackensack, New YOrk, etc?????

                  // They died because the fire raced through the concealed space in those trusses and that bldg was ready to collapse when the 1st engine arrived.

                  That doesn't kill firefighters. The go no go decision to enter an obvious through the roof truss building with living beings that is closed and has been for hours. The desision killed. Stepping in front of a moving bus will do the same thing.

                  //What's the response time in Houston for the 1st engine

                  City wide average is 5.9 minutes based upon the November figures. SO it doubles every 30 seconds. Let's assume for a minute the fire where it was set was 3 inches square. Seems small for arson but lets do that.

                  In 5.9 minutes to get there, another minute to deploy a line force a door. The fire would have been fully involved in every single part of the building according to your belief. It wasn't. Dang even real life doesn't agree with you.

                  The warehouse that killed 6 burned 60 to 90 minutes according to NIOSH. So the building in just 20 minutes would have been fully involved on all floors 45 minutes before the fire department arrives.

                  you 2 feet times 2 = 4 x 2 = 8 then 16 then 32 then 64 then 128, 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 104576 2 mil 4 mil 8 mil 16 mil 32 mil 54 mil 128 mil 256 mil 528 mil 1 billion Gee 15.5 minutes it is 1 billion square feet. So at 30 minutes 5000 times the size and 60 minutes 11000 times larger and 90 minutes size of the earth and most of the planets.

                  //His special interest can cost firefighters their lives and leave their children without a father or mother.

                  Oh I see, not smoke detectors, not codes, not built in protection systems, just educate the fireman it grows so fast...and then????

                  Go whine about somebody else, I'm not buing it.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    "His special interest can cost firefighters their lives and leave their children without a father or mother."

                    I've made no bones about it, Larry is a friend of mine and has been for a long time. In all the time I've known him, he has been a strong advocate of firefighter safety. Besides reading his posts here, you've probably read some of his magazine work.

                    Now with that out of the way, can you cite one instance when he was serious that Larry endorsed or otherwise implied something that would endanger firefighters?

                    Or were you exagerating when you said this?


                    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited 02-19-2001).]

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      What was the orginal topic of this thread? Its kind of hard to tell from all this bickering.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        WARNING - this is off topic, long, drawn out and boring. But since the last strike at LHS was addressed to me (why?) I'll put my 2 cents in.

                        Go take a look at the Apparatus Innovation forum on Telesquirts. Good exhange of info until LHS comes along in his wise a** attitude and starts taking shots at others comments.

                        OK, I did. Point out the first of what you would consider wiseass attitude if you don't mind. I didn't see what I consider shots at his or others comments from either side of the debate (unless I was really thin skinned). I did and do see questions as to a comments validity from both sides of the issue throughout these forums. There is a difference.

                        A few folks disagree on the value of a Squirt. Big deal. Depending on your needs, it's better than some ladders and not as good as others, all posters clearly stated that. What's the problem? Like has been said, you don't like the tone, get over it, it's direct and to the point. Do you prefer your edges a little blurry or clear cut?

                        One Forum someone's looking for some data on fire growth. I gave the guy numerous real sources of data. LHS shows up, calls fast fire growth an "urban myth."

                        That was quite an informative answer you gave too. But I'm certain numerous means more than three. And as far as it being a myth...

                        Personally I do not believe fast fire growth under controlled conditions in a laboratory environment can be denied.

                        A fast growth fire in somebodys' home or place of business on any given day in any given environment under any given condition can be.

                        For example, when was the last time you went to a mattress fire? Start with a 6" dia. fire and give yourself a generous 5 minutes for call talking, dispatch, response, size up and attack.

                        What kind of fire should we find?

                        - A dinky little BS mattress fire.

                        - 30 second theory, fully involved (roughly 1,200sqft).

                        - 1 minute theory, a nice little R&C.

                        What's my point?

                        Under similar conditions, we've (if you've served any time on the line you're included) been to all 3 fires with their origin in just the mattress, haven't we?

                        The lab is a nice statistic to know, but under the real world conditions I've observed it doesn't mean squat.

                        How does he end it "in reality everybody knows that fires don't grow that fast."

                        Admit it, if you've spent anytime on the line, you've seen fires that haven't grown that fast.

                        I ask him to take a look at the MO church fire....how did that fire get so big. Avoids the question, tells us that the department spent money on sprinklers or something.

                        You know, I had to re-read his post on that one for clarity. I still can't believe it. A fire department using part of their budget to sprinker 50% of their district? At first glance you think 'what the hell were they thinking' and when it sets in, 'man what a great PR move.' There's an FD that will probably get whatever they want for the next several years.

                        Now back to your comment. You never asked him how the fire got that big, you asked him to agree with you that it was a big fire "That's a pretty big fire wouldn't you say?" Then you said it wouldn't happen in Rattlesnake because of their apparatus. He agreed it wouldn't, but not because of the apparatus; because of the fire department spending half its budget to sprinkelr buildings. In the interest of fairness, he didn't reply to your question as to whether or not it was a big fire.

                        Since you brought it up (I didn't read it) how did it get so big? Delayed discovery, delayed notification, delayed response, maybe a combination of these and/or more circumstances? And I'm not doubting the FDs ability because I don't know the details, but were their tactics a factor in the size at the time the picture was taken? Remember, pictures don't tell the whole story, just a fraction of a second of the whole story.

                        (By the way, are you sure it wasn't the IA church fire, can't find an MO in the FH archives.)

                        Let's here LHS tell young fire fighters on this Forum how those firefighter [Houston] died. They died because the fire raced through the concealed space in those trusses and that bldg was ready to collapse when the 1st engine arrived.

                        I thought they were murdered, that's what the jury found if I recall. Anyway...

                        Let's tell the "young firefighters on this Forum" that didn't read it (hey, those reports can be pretty dry, you got to force yourself to read some of them) the truth about what NIOSH found in their investigation, not spin to hammer a poster. (cut and pasted from the NIOSH web site):

                        - ensure that the department’s Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) are followed

                        - ensure that fire command always maintains close accountability for all personnel at the fire scene

                        - ensure that Incident Command conducts an initial size-up of the incident before initiating fire fighting efforts and continually evaluates the risk versus gain during operations at an incident

                        - ensure that vertical ventilation takes place to release any heat, smoke, and fire

                        - ensure that fire fighters are trained to identify truss roof systems

                        - ensure that fire fighters use extreme caution when operating on or under a lightweight truss roof and should develop standard operating procedures for buildings constructed with lightweight roof trusses

                        - ensure that fire fighters performing fire fighting operations under or above trusses are evacuated as soon as it is determined that the trusses are exposed to fire

                        - explore using a thermal imaging camera as a part of the exterior size-up

                        - ensure that, whenever there is a change in personnel, all personnel are briefed and understand the procedures and operations required for that shift, station, or duty

                        - ensure that, whenever a building is known to be on fire and is occupied, all exits are forced and blocked open

                        - consider providing all fire fighters with portable radios or radios integrated into their face pieces

                        - consider adding additional staff in accordance with NFPA standards

                        - establish various written standard operating procedures, ensure record keeping, and conduct annual evaluations to monitor and evaluate the effectiveness of their overall SCBA maintenance program.

                        It's pretty clear that there's whole lot more than fire running through a concealed space involved in these fatalities.

                        To the person just reading your statement the fire running through the concealed space impinging on the trusses killed them. To the one who reads mine, there's no mention of the fire running the concealed space. Even in the report it is just assumed it was (and it probably was). Those that haven't, read it here: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face200013.html

                        Which one of us is telling the more complete story?

                        And here's another kick to fast fire growth. The place is full of grease, plastic, paper, cardboard, wood, wood byproducts, styrofoam and other combustables, with zero protection. The NIOSH report states the fire probably had a 25 minute head start on Houston. Considering the fast fire growth theory, it must be a HUGE Micky D's to have that big of a head start and not be fully involved on arrival.

                        His special interest can cost firefighters their lives and leave their children without a father or mother.

                        Blanket statement without support. Please provide examples. Now you've been asked twice.

                        I made it point long ago not to get personnel on these Forums, but LHS is a definite exception.

                        Other exceptions to the rules...

                        Real fires burn at different rates than the ones in the NIST labs.

                        [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 02-19-2001).]

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Classic LHS spin - I made wise a** comments directed at the MO FD with the Church fire. I absolutely did nothing of the sort. I made wise a** comment directed at YOU asking you how that fire got so big. Which, by the way, I haven't seen an answer. Classic spin. No, a classic lie. And on the Squirts post - guys says Squirts are useless. That's his opinion - he's entitled to it. You come up back with your typical bs response that umpteen FDs buy them, 1500 sold, blah, blah. You think their useful, he thinks their useless. Neither of you are God, so back off.

                          This is best you can do to refute the fire growth data - a mattress fire? Yes, that's a smart thing to tell a young firefighter, a few fires smolder for a while, so assume they all do. And oh come on. I know you can do better than that for fire growth sources. Come on LHS, you put pages and pages of ISO calculations, etc. etc. and all you have on fire growth is the alamanac and handbook? That's it, that's all you got, that's really pretty pitiful compared to your usual answers. You love numbers (width of fly sections, flow from dual 4" and on and on) and you don't have even one number to quote from your fire growth sources. I hate to tell you and I know you just so committed to this apparatus special interest you won't admit it. Go to NFPA 72, like I said before, there are well established growth curves for many different fires - slow, medium, fast, ultrafast. Fire doubling in the 10 - 120 second range. Industrial, storage, flammable liquid, even faster. Actual tests run by fire sprinkler manufacturers for the Home Depots, Best Buys, etc. warehouse retail - 286 degree F sprinklers activating in a 30-35 high roof within 29-30 seconds from ignition. These aren't lab tests, there full scale tests, same thing like you find in the stores.
                          Residential going to flashover, it can go there in 120-180 seconds.

                          Whoever asked about LHS not telling the truth and putting somebody in danger. Take a Home Depot, that fire is ultrafast, doubling in the 5-10 second range. 300 degree at the UNPROTECTED STEEL roof in 30 seconds. Listen to LHS and this is all an urban myth. Sure, go ahead, don't worry about the steel, it's still small (because mattress fire burn slow - that's useful) and if the sprinklers aren't getting it, don't worry, that unprotected steel roof structure will last for what hours?

                          I know you just can't stand it, but guess what. If the sprinklers don't get it for that Home Depot, all that Fallon special is going to do is leave the slab a little cleaner. All that work on the specs, the glorious telesquirt (and don't forget the height of those hand rails - their compliant), the in-cab pump panel, the 2600 ft of supply line - and guess what, it's still a slab when you leave. I actually kind of feel bad for you. The truck does have some cute features. I'm no psychologist, but maybe it's Tonka Truck deprivation as a kid? Didn't you get a couple of those? And yes, ISO gives full credit for Tonka Truck so if you didn't get any as a kid, you can get your taxpayers to buy you one.

                          OK, like I said, go to 72 and explain to us all why the fire growth curves are WRONG and you're right. Now, just so we're really clear, I'm not interested in how fast the valves can be changed on your rigs, we're talking fire growth here.

                          So go look at the sources and refute them. Tell us that those sources are bogus, tell us that the fire tests at FM and UL are "unrealistic." Also, while your at it - explain how fire growth is measured, any expert like your self knows about that. Right?

                          Oh, I'll be watching how much you do your little line by line rebuttal. I think I'm seeing a pattern. When you know what your talking about, you do that line by line quote/rebuttal routine, lots of numbers, etc and when you don't know sq***, you respond without the quotes and are all over the place, pulling stuff out of thin air, telling us again (for about the 1,000th time) how you can change any valve on the Fallon special without any tools in 30 seconds or whatever.

                          If you are going to tell us more about the truck, please, please tell us something new.


                          Comment


                          • #43
                            ffeng

                            //Classic LHS spin - I made wise a** comments directed at the MO FD with the Church fire. I absolutely did nothing of the sort.

                            OK big boy cut and paste what you said all of it. Then will chat.


                            //Which, by the way, I haven't seen an answer.

                            I wasn't at that fire, were you? You want conjecture? I think a plane hit it. Who knows. And the smart [email protected]@ed crack ABOUT ONE FIRE TRUCK PUTTING IT OUT WAS TO PROVE WHAT????? I'm suppose to take you seriously, yeah right!

                            //And on the Squirts post - guys says Squirts are useless. That's his opinion - he's entitled to it.

                            Get over it. Those useless rigs are fighting fires every single day in the US. It was bull and I refuted it, just like his nonsense tip loading and rails.

                            // This is best you can do to refute the fire growth data - a mattress fire?

                            Your 30 second rule has been refuted 10 ways to Sunday with real life examples, Was McDonalds fully involved after a 25 minute head start? NO, was the warehouse in MA NO. IT IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE OR EVEN A MOST OF THE TIME the RULE, SO IT IS BULL, PERIOD END OF STORY.

                            //a few fires smolder for a while, so assume they all do. And oh come on. I know you can do better than that for fire growth sources.

                            I don't think recruits are as stupid as you give them credit nor are we to you 30 second crap. They will go to fires like we have and see the truth.

                            I'll ask you a question since the NFPA fire protection hand book and almanac are not creditable sources according to you. What is the name of the Theorem that all fires are oxygen limited? NAME IT!. Then once you've read what it says you can come back and apologize. Oh I made this point weeks ago.

                            //That's it, that's all you got, that's really pretty pitiful compared to your usual answers.

                            Your silliness isn't worth the effort.


                            //I know you just so committed to this apparatus special interest you won't admit it.

                            Please take a couple paragraphs and explain WHAT THE HELL your talking about.


                            //Go to NFPA 72,

                            Not real life, the fire in a warehouse in MA or a McDonalds in TX certainly didn't follow these rules for one reason. Look it up and tell us the name of the rule why.

                            //Residential going to flashover, it can go there in 120-180 seconds.

                            I agree with that, then the growth stops, doubling every 30 seconds as does almost all other types of fires.

                            //Take a Home Depot,

                            Ok, now you want to be specific. Before it was all fire double EVERY 30 seconds. Nowback to Home Depot. The codes all the codes and the insurance carrier for them say sprinkle Home Depots SO THEY DON'T DOUBLE EVER! What was the point you were making about HOME DEPOT FIRES? HOW MANY HAVE THEY HAD that LEVELED THE BUILDING AND HOW MANY FIREFIGHTERS DIED BATTLING THEM? Statistics please. Here I'll give you a blank to write the answer down on __, there, that should be plenty.

                            //Listen to LHS and this is all an urban myth.

                            Yes it is which SPRINKLED HOME DEPOT BURNED TO THE GROUND?

                            //If the sprinklers don't get it for that Home Depot,

                            So where hasn't it worked.

                            // all that Fallon special is going to do is leave the slab a little cleaner.

                            Oh so now it is a Fallon special why did you change fire departments on us mid stream? Our Home Depot will never have a fire requiring a Fallon fire truck, ever!

                            ///it's still a slab when you leave.

                            Name the city it has ever happen in!

                            //I'm no psychologist,

                            No, but you're a complete [email protected]@! You can't stay on topic and resort to personal attacks as usual.

                            //you can get your taxpayers to buy you one.

                            First of all they didn't buy us one they bought four. They'd do it again in a heart beat. They more than pay for themselves in insurance savings every 28 days. Feel fire to call the mayor and ask, they are his numbers not the FD's.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              (( And on the Squirts post- guys says Squirts are useless. That's his opinion - he's entitled to it. You come up back with your typical bs response that umpteen FDs buy them, 1500 sold, blah, blah. You think their useful, he thinks their useless. Neither of you are God, so back off. ))

                              ffeng,
                              I will agree he is not God and I will bet LHS and ADSN will also agree that they are not God.

                              BUT - One of them fellows gets paid a pretty penny to tell Fire Chiefs all around the country how to run their fire department. Now either he is really good at bull****ing or he must really know what he is talking about. I bet he knows what he is talking about. But that is a sure bet for me because I have dealt with LHS first hand.

                              Here is a man that is telling the chief of the 3rd largest fire dept in the nation how to run his dept one night and the next night he is in country-*** Magnolia, TX washing my fire engine out on my apron while I fix some grub.

                              Feel grateful that you can sit here and exchange information with him for free.

                              (( Fallon special / The truck does have some cute features.))

                              CUTE FEATURES?
                              Is that what you call a truck that has more capabilities than any other truck out there?

                              Or is it that you are just jealous?

                              I know I am.

                              Buck

                              Oh! I almost forgot.
                              Hey Rich! you out there?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Richard Nester
                                Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.


                                So what are you suppose to carry? I asked Ed Straw with ISO and got back the following answers:

                                To: [email protected]
                                Subject: A quick question


                                Mr Straw,

                                We got an ISO equipment sheet in the mail today from ISO to fill out for our
                                brand new aerial ladder. On the back it had a substitution list. We've
                                never seen this before today. That sheet was not up to date. What we have is a list of FSRS (Fire Suppression Rating Schedule) Equivalencies dated 10/31/00.

                                Question 1) It says a hose clamp will substitute
                                for a burst hose jacket. Is that correct?

                                Answer We will substitute and credit one hose clamp for both a clamp and a burst hose jacket.

                                Question 2) If I'm reading the sheet right I need one 200 foot booster reel or one 200
                                foot 1" ,1 1/2" or 1 3/4" preconnect.

                                AND

                                Two 200 foot 1 1/2", 1 3/4" or 2 inch preconnected lines.

                                And

                                Carry on each engine or at the station 200 feet of 1 1/2" , 1 3/4" or 2 inch
                                hose. ON EACH ENGINE COMPANY. Is that correct? For full credit on Engine Companies,

                                Answer That is correct.

                                Question 3) A question came up about the service company equipment. Why is there a
                                requirement for a 500 spray nozzle if there isn't anything to hook the nozzle
                                to the rig. We talked to someone with ISO on the phone who said the
                                provision was for a ladder pipe for those communities needing an aerial
                                device.

                                Answer The reason for the large spray nozzle in with Table 544.A of the FSRS, Equipment For A Service Company, is twofold. First if a ladder company is required (instead of a Service Company), Table 544.B of the FSRS,

                                Additional Equipment For A
                                Ladder Company will kick in and the device would be needed for the Elevated Stream Device (ladder pipe or elevating platform nozzle). However, if only a Service Company is needed, the Large Spray Nozzle can also be used for the Heavy Stream Device on
                                Engine Companies. So there is no need for a fog tip if an engine runs on the response.

                                Question He also pointed out that that rule has been changed at a recent ISO meeting
                                to include ladder trucks only. For service trucks they simply take the
                                required 334 points and subtract the 16 points for the fog tip and then
                                calculate for credit. Is our understanding correct? No. There has been no change in the requirement for a large spray nozzle on Service Companies for full credit. Do we need it on our
                                service companies or not?

                                Answer Yes. We may also allow credit when the nozzle is carried on an Engine Company that responds to all structure fire alarms with a Service Company from the same station.


                                Question He also said 500 gpm was minimum acceptable nozzle. That a 1000 gpm device
                                would be needed for full credit. Is this correct?

                                A heavy stream device must be at least 1000gpm for full credit for
                                that item.

                                Question 4) Is the 08 - 98 edition of the grading schedule the one that applies now
                                and is it the same as the 1980 version?

                                Answer Yes. There are some packaging differences between the 2 but it is the same schedule.

                                Oh, there are no OHIO specific rules, the ubstitution sheets do exist I now have a copy of them.

                                LOOKS LIKE YOUIGNORED SOME GOOD ADVICE. LIKE THEY SUGGESTED MR STRAW WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT HIS FIELD AGENTS NOT FOLLOWING TE RULES.

                                [This message has been edited by truck (edited 03-09-2001).]

                                Comment

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