State Farm Withdraws From ISO

[LHS*]

//the ISO person told us that he had to do some ISO inspections in Texas and had to do a lot of research before he could do them there. //

That is because there are 6.5 more poits there. Theere are no special rules or ponts in your state. NONE!

The equipment list hasn't changed in 21 years, the substitution list has. I'll fax it to you, ask your grader why it says copyright ISO on it and why it doesn't apply there, call ISO and forward it to them. You'll see you are wrong and if he is actualy saying what you says he is saying he is too. And Mr Gage will not let it stand. The phone number and email addresses are posted above.



[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-15-2001).]

[SRVFD2]

Metal - I'm with you 100% - LHS your comments shocked me - I thought your dept was a STRAIGHT 1 !!!!! Wow I wish you knew what it was like out here in the real world of "rural firefighting". (And I'm not even going to read any responses you give to this - because my biggest wish is that this subject could be discussed without you!!) You come up with good information OCCASIONALLY - but your favorite subject seems to be to put everyone else down!

[This message has been edited by SRVFD2 (edited 02-14-2001).]

[S. Cook]

"the real world of "rural firefighting"."

If it's not too much trouble, could you explain what the real world of rural firefighting is?

[LHS*]

1. I never said a hose clamp wan't required.

2. If you had 3 preconnects you would have gotten full credit with 600 or 800 feet of total attack line.

3. If you had spare hose on the shelf or on the rig you'd still get full credit.

4. 500 fog tip does not get full credit.

5. If you'd had a clamp and a 50' of extra 2 1/2" or 3" hose you'd gotten credit for a burst hose jacket.

6. Nothing I suggested in any way would have cost you points.

7. Not having two precinnects that you said wasn't needed would have resulted in zero credit. You neded three preconnects 2 x 1 1/2" and a booster or 3 - 1 1/2" lines.

8. The 1998 schedule wouldn't have effected you in the least.

9. There are not unique equipment rules or substitution rules in Ohio or anywhere else in the US.

10. Portable monitor needed on a ladder truck.

Anyone want the truth look in the fire chiefs handbook, or the grading schedule, or Harry Hickey's book, or Fire House Magazine, or Fire Rescue Magazine, or call ISO for an equipment sheet they'll fax it, or buy the rating schedule, or when they come to grade you they'll give you one free.

Ask for a substitution sheet, they handed them out at the Ohio fire chiefs the last two years and at the International Chiefs.

You made accusations you can't prove, that are contrary to the grading schedule, I provided my evidence in writting!



[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-15-2001).]

[LHS*]

//Metal - SRVFD2

//Wow I wish you knew what it was like out here in the real world of "rural firefighting". //

Come on out here to the desert, a 5000 square mile protection area with 30, 50, 90 and 120 miles runs for mutual aid and show us how it is done.

[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-15-2001).]

[MetalMedic]

Originally posted by LHS*:

I say you are full of SH*T and you are lying!

MetalMedic, rville (OH) Fire Dept is full of it!

I'll let this "member" speak for himself... do you want to take advise from someone who will call you names and insult your department, rather than join in a productive exchange of ideas?

I come from a Class 5 department, so I can give you what advise I have learned from our most recent experience with ISO. Be it right or wrong in LHS's eyes doesn't change the fact that it was right for us during this inspection.

Sticks and stones may break my bones LHS, but the ISO still REQUIRED a 500 gpm large spray nozzle on our Rescue Truck!


------------------
Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.


[This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited 02-15-2001).]

[res7cue]

Boy, I just read the qoute of LHS* that was posted by Metalmedic andif this is true it just proves to me the maturity level of LHS*,

[res7cue]

I thought the purpose of these forums was to allow the exchange of information, how things are being done in other areas, etc. and NOT for the purpose of bashing each other, as it seems LHS* loves to do here as well in alot of his BULL**** articles.

I say we all boycott any further posts by
LHS* !!!!!

What do you all think???

------------------

[mongofire_99]

What do I think?

Well, since you asked...

After reading all the posts as objectively as I can on both current forums regarding ISO, I think you're letting the spin on LHS' posts go to your head.

As pointed out previously, he answered the questions, cleared up misunderstandings and was flamed for it - I think S. Cook is right, some of us don't like the tone. We don't like to hear point blank that our long held beliefs and traditions may not be on as solid gound as we think they are. I admit some fault on this too, but I love a direct answer to a direct question. And if we have the eggs to ask, we better be prepared for the answer.

No that's not right. We like to be beat around the bush until it's so foggy we can say "yeah that looks right" and could care less if it is right to just about anything. No direct answers for us, no sir. Especially when they go against the grain of our long time beliefs and traditions or prove we're not ready for what we're supposed to be ready for. It's not that we can't handle the truth, we just don't want too.

Did he give the right answers or not? If you claim he didn't, point out the wrong one(s) and provide the facts to back up your position.

If you don't think he did, put up or shut up. Post the proof, not just your take on things.

In both cases he has provided direct answers to direct questions and as yet has to be proven wrong.

Someone said he said a hose clamp was not required, he never said it.

Someone said (in spite of their own post to the contrary) that 800' of 1-1/2" hose was required on the rig. He said it wasn't and they said it was. Here's the guy's own post read it and and you'll see that 600' is all that is required to be carried:

Hose:
Booster(*) 200'
1 1/2-inch: Carried 400'
spare (may be also be carried) 200'
2 1/2-inch: spare (may also be carried)200'

*Extra pre-connected 1 1/2-inch hose may be substituted for booster hose.

Obviously you don't believe LHS. He gave you all the phone numbers you'd need to check things out for yourself. Did anyone bother too? No.

In neither case was he the first one to call names and he held off when he had every right to start. In fact as best as I can remember, he has never been the first one to start the childish BS of name calling in any of the topics he's posted to. I'd be happy to see your evidence to the contrary.

You thought the the purpose of these posts was to exchange information, NOT for the purpose of bashing each other and proposed boycotting LHS.

Yet you slid right by ffeng when he's the first one to bash on this topic, you going to boycott him?

MetalMedic was the first one to bash on the other topic, you going to boycott him?

What about firedoc6, not even intersted in the topic, just wanted to stop in and call LHS "a real *******!"(exact quote). How about a boycott there?

No, you won't boycott those guys. You'd rather let your personal feelings get in the way of fairness and good common sense.

Hey, you asked what I thought. If I caused you some bad feelings at me because of this, I don't care. You can only blame yourself.

[This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited 02-15-2001).]

[MetalMedic]

Originally posted by mongofire_99:
Someone said (in spite of their own post to the contrary) that 800' of 1-1/2" hose was required on the rig. He said it wasn't and they said it was. Here's the guy's own post read it and and you'll see that 600' is all that is required to be carried:

Hose:
Booster(*) 200'
1 1/2-inch: Carried 400'
spare (may be also be carried) 200'
2 1/2-inch: spare (may also be carried)200'

*Extra pre-connected 1 1/2-inch hose may be substituted for booster hose.

Ok, how about a little BASIC mathematics here...

200 plus 400 plus 200 equals = 800

alright, maybe that is too confusing...

200+400+200 = 800

hmm... will this help?

200
+400
+200
_____
800

Lemme see, maybe a little algebra flair,

(200+400)+ 200 = 800

The truck doesn't have a Booster Line!!! So we MUST carry 800 feet of 1 1/2 hose to get the full credit... How hard to I have to bang my head on a wall to defend my ability to add numbers!!!!

And a 500 gpm large spray nozzle is needed for a "Service Company". It is listed in ISO Table 544.A - AND - in a 250 page downloadable document on LHS's website!!! Both list this item as 1 needed for 16 points... But here LHS even argues with himself!!! First he insists that the appliance is not required, and then after I back him into a corner, he preaches that it is only worth 8 points DESPITE what is written in what is (apparently) his own document!!! (which by the way has several items in it that look remarkably like the copyrighted ISO FIRE SUPPRESSION RATING SCHEDULE....)

What more proof do you want? It is in the ISO standard, it is in LHS's book - AND - the ISO Inspector located it for the purpose of rating our rescue truck as a "Service Company".

When I started the posting on the other thread, I asked about items I was "told" we had to had. When I was ATTACKED by LHS who proceeded to tell me every single item was not needed, I researched my posting and supported all but one which I indicated I had received in hear-say. You see, I can admit when I make a mistake and move on, but this LHS person wanted to brag about how smart he was and ended up making the fool out of himself.



------------------
Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

[mongofire_99]

The truck doesn't have a Booster Line!!! So we MUST carry 800 feet of 1 1/2 hose to get the full credit...

Good for not having the booster. I've seen too many of us get in over our heads with that thing because we're too lazy to stretch out the crosslay.

Now sit back, take a deep breath, a sip of coffee and go back and read your post (which comes straight out of the schedule) carefully again.

Hose:
Booster(*) 200'
1 1/2-inch: Carried 400'
spare (may be also be carried) 200'
2 1/2-inch: spare (may also be carried)200'

*Extra pre-connected 1 1/2-inch hose may be substituted for booster hose.

The key phrase there is "may also be carried." That means you must have it, but you have the option to (or not to) carry it.

So now let's do the math again...

200' of required carried booster hose + 400' of required carried 1.5" = 600' of SDH required to be carried on the truck.

If you don't have the booster line, you can use a another preconnected 200' 1.5" line. That still equals 600' that is required to be carried on the truck.

The 200 feet of spare 1.5" hose is not required to be on the truck. That's why it says "may also be carried."

600' is all that is required on your truck. The other 200' can be in the station or on the truck (your choice) for full credit.

How hard to I have to bang my head on a wall to defend my ability to add numbers!!!!

I don't think adding the numbers is the problem. I think, at least in this instance, you're not reading the schedule or your own posts clearly.

[LHS*]

Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

OK I'LL BITE

//200+400+200 = 800

not when you are adding 1 1/2" hose.

I'LL CLEAR UP YOUR MATH

200' BOOSTER
400' 1 1/2"
200 FEET 1 1/2" SPARE not required to be carried.
TOTAL AMOUNT OF 1 1/2" HOSE = 600 NOT 800.

TOTAL REQUIRED TO BE CARRIED IS 400 FEET PLUS A BOOSTER OR 600 FEET WITHOUT A BOOSTER.

AT THIS POINT YOU MENTIONED 2 1/2" HOSE.

THERE WERE NEVER ANY DISCUASSIONS ON the amount of 2 1/2". Any other new info you want to add at this later date?

//The truck doesn't have a Booster Line!!! So we MUST carry 800 feet of 1 1/2 hose to get the full credit

The number is 600. Their is no requirement to carry the spare 200 feet so the word MUST that you use is wrong. You can and that is consistent with what I've said from day one and so does the book.


/"Service Company".

NOW YOU ARE CALLING THE VEHICLE THE RIGHT THING. YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR GRADE BACK YET, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU've SCORED SO DON'T TELL US YOU GOT FULL CREDIT BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW. THE GRADING HAS NOT GONE THROUGH REVIEW.

YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU ARE BEING CREDITED AS A SERVICE COPMPANY OR A LADDER/SERVICE COMPANY. NOW DO YOU????

If you used a 500 fog you don't know if the field office will credit it at 8, 12 or 16 points until you get the results back. Don't try snowing us, too many of us reading this know how the system works.

//And a 500 gpm large spray nozzle is needed for a "Service Company"...on LHS's website!!! Both list this item as 1 needed for 16 points...

DOING SOME SELECTIVE READING AREN'T YOU?
IT GOES ON TO SAY:

"The elevated stream device on an aerial has to be a fog tip and must flow 500 gpm fog tip. It requires a 1000 gpm tip for full credit. A 500 tip would score 50% and a 750 gpm 75%."

"The heavy stream device on an engine can be portable or fixed. It must be equipped with a 500 gpm minimum fog tip. A 1000 gpm fog tip is needed for full credit. A 500 tip would score 50% and a 750 gpm 75%. Please note, the inspector will read the gun to see the flow rating of the device. If it is 800 portable you’ll get 80%."

"A large spray nozzle carried on a ladder or service company must be a fog tip that will flow at least 500 gpm. A 1000 gpm fog tip is needed for full credit. . A 500 tip would score 50% and a 750 gpm 75%."


//I researched my posting and supported all but one

HOW DID YOU SUPPORT IT AND WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

In writting please and compare it to what you said was said to the contrary.

Pretty big words to say on a public forum, "look out he's wrong" and then have others come back and say, "where did he say what you say he said" and not provide proof.

A lot of folks have asked you direct questions do you plan on answering them or avoiding them to save face?

Carefully Read what mongo said!

[MetalMedic]

You guys never give up... you always have to be right.... if you don't carry the 200 spare feet - you lose points!!! Surely the "ISO Slayer" has some concept of the idea that if you want to get the best possible score, you want to take advantage of every opportunity to gain points. So, if we want to gain all of the points we possibly can based upon our hose, we MUST have 800 feet of 1 1/2" hose.

If we didn't carry that spare hose, we lose 8 points. That is twice as many points as we would have lost if we were not carrying that Burst Hose Jacket that the "ISO Slayer" told we didn't need either! (Oh, I forgot, we can substitute a hose clamp and more hose, but the "ISO Slayer" isn't clear on how many hose clamps we need to do that little dance)




------------------
Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

[mongofire_99]

I don't always have to be right. Show me where I am in error and I will make full apologies.

Did you happen to see the sheet ISO used for your apparatus inventory titled "Apparatus and Equipment"

In the chart on that page, 4th listed item down in the first column it says:

"1 1/2", 1 3/4" SPARE HOSE (FEET)**"

Being the smart folks we are, we know the 2 asterics lead you down to the bottom of the page where it clearly states:

"** In fire station or carried"

Now tell us, what does that mean?

A seperate question for you LHS. If I have a station with 6 engines, do I have to have 6 sets of spare hose (one for each), or would a single set get credit for all 6?

[LHS*]

// if you don't carry the 200 spare feet - you lose points!!!

The rating schedule is very clear when it says, "spare may be carried."

It does not say MUST be carried you're the only one saying that.

Like the spare foam, it too may be carried or stored at any fire station as long as it is available.

//you want to take advantage of every opportunity to gain points.

You get credit whether it is carrier or not.

//If we didn't carry that spare hose, we lose 8 points.

Two of us hae tried a dozen times to spell it out to yo. I guess you just can't understand what you read or what we post.

//Burst Hose Jacket that the "ISO Slayer" told we didn't need either! (Oh, I forgot, we can substitute a hose clamp and more hose, but the "ISO Slayer" isn't clear on how many hose clamps we need to do that little dance)

I HAVE BEEN QUITE CLEAR, A CLAMP AND 50 FEET OF HOSE 2 1/2" OR 3 INCH, SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN. THAT IS ABOVE AND BEYOND THE REQUIRED CLAMP. sAID IT HERE AND IN THE BOOK AND THATS IS WHAT THEIR LIST SAYS TOO.

You know for someone who keeps quoting my book, let's read what it says,

"Instead of carrying a hose jacket that can cost $40 you can carry an additional 2 ½” or 3” hose clamp and one additional section of 2 ½” or 3 "hose. It accomplishes the same task so it gets full credit. "

SO IF I'M NOT BEING CLEAR POST WHERE I SAID SOMETHING TO THE CONTRARY, EITHER HERE OR IN MY BOOK, I HAVE OFFERRED OVER AND OVER TO TALK TO YOUR ISO GUY, FAX YOU THEIR DOCUMENTS SUPPORTING IT, WE'VE EVEN ASKED WHO BY NAME WAS GRADING YOU, SO WHAT ELSE CAN I DO???????



[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-15-2001).]