State Farm Withdraws From ISO

[F02]

Got this from the State fire Marshal's office.
"State Farm will no longer use the ISO as a rating factor.This is signifacant as State Farm nationally insures about 20% of all residential properties and is the largest insurance company.
State Farm's new process is called Subzone Rating Factor and will rely on their own experience for insured losses. They will use Zip Code areas with similar claim and expense cost trends as a means of generaly defining the specific Sudzone Rating factor."
They go on to claim how much better and cheaper this will be.
This has allready happened in Illinois and Michigan.Supposed to happen across the county in the next two years.
If they insure 20% of the property,I assume they pay 20% of ISO's budget.Does this mean the end for ISO?

[LHS*]

Actually 11 states are doing it now.

What it means is the fox is watching the hen house. ISO used to sell to state farm GUS maps that confirmed where everyone's home was in relation to who provided them protection. This service was by ISO request. The problem was you lived on the outside of a big scity, the agent would give you a break even though you were in a class 9 area and give you the big cities class 3.

The insurance companies said they were losing millions. So they asked for acurate mapping and 30 days after they found yo mis written they changed your grade. It was an honesty policy. Of course these maps cost bucks and ISO didn't get the whole country done.

So why pay ISO for surveys, after all ISO made reportedly $74 million last year, we can do it our selves cheaper better etc.

That is what state farm proposes. So they will use your fire loss data to determine your rates. With 60% of theUSa Class 7 or worse that means all those zip codes woul pay the highest. If you have a big fire, it could take you 10 years to get your rates back in line. Some big cities with class 2 and 3 rates pay class 9 rates now due to fire experience.

What really will occur, is insurance is market driven. The cheapest product doesn't always sell nor does the most expensive. The market controls the rates, if you don't like what state farm offers or costs you change carriers. Here is an example of cost for the same home by a whole host of carriers.

Company
Name Owner
A Owner
B Owner
C Owner
D Financial
Rating Complaint Index Consumer
Phone

Allstate Insurance Company 573 688 716 1135

Allstate Texas Lloyds 714 857 1378 2183

American Fire and Casualty 485 582 606 960

American National Lloyds Insurance Company 363 451 451 738

Armed Forces Insurance Exchange 552 740 694 1101

Chubb Lloyds Insurance Company of Texas 714 851 886 1389

Colonial Lloyds 575 689 718 1138

Consolidated Lloyds 613 736 766 1214

CU Lloyds 353 552 441 698

Delta Lloyds Insurance Company of Houston, Texas 816 979 1102 1746

Farmers Insurance Exchange 539 641 666 1040

Fire Insurance Exchange 643 772 804 1274

Hartford Lloyds Insurance Company n/a n/a n/a n/a

Nationwide Lloyds 544 682 682 1127

Ohio Casualty Group 560 672 700 1109

Safeco Lloyds Insurance Company 472 566 590 934

Security National Insurance Company 564 677 705 1117

State Farm Lloyds 569 683 711 1126

Texas Farm Bureau Underwriters 498 598 623 986

Travelers Lloyds of Texas Insurance Company 445 534 557 882

The ideal thing for the fire service to do, and this has happened before is to use our public support to get credit for improved fire protection.

Right now State farms goal is not to reward departments for doing the right thing. So we should suggest they not buy from state farm because state farm is anti fire department.

Here is what state fam said 2 years ago.

"According to Don Sullivan, executive vice president of State Farm Fire and Casualty Company the nation’s largest insurance carrier, “We believe that homeowners who support improvements in fire protection through their tax dollars should be rewarded with lower insurance rates.” A call to a local carrier shows a 62% reduction in premiums paid depending upon the level of fire protection offered by the community. That is a difference of as much as $447 a year on a $120,000 home every year for 10 or 15 years! “That is why we’re pushing the technology envelope on precision, to make sure we can properly locate each property on a fire protection map (Using ISO™ ™’GUS mapping program) and charge the owner the correct insurance premium.” Any property found paying the wrong premium will be adjusted within the next 18 months."

What you'll see occur they will in fact improve their bottom line over the next 2 to 3 years then lose their tail theirafter and probably jump back into the ISO system. Their pockets are deep enough to do this experiment. Note how small all the other residential carriers are:

Company Market Share

State Farm 23.0%
All State 11.9%
Farmers 5.7%
USAA 3.2%
Nationwide 2.9%
Chubb 2.0%
Prudential 1.9%
Aetna 1.9%
Safeco 1.7%
ITT Hartford 1.6%


Their rates won't drop, as you can see in the chart above they are not the low cost leader now. They are in some cases 30% high for the same coverage.

If you believe that zip coades and fire loss are the correct measure do nothing. If you'd like to get credit for trying to be a better fire department suggest people shop around and avoid the company not supporting fire services.

[F02]

So will ISO charge these smaller companys more to take up the slack?
Will they pay it?
If they don't and go to some formula of thier own where will that leave us?
What standard will we be judged by?
If we have a bad year with lots of fires everybodys rates go up?
We can't control people who do stupid things and start fires.We can control how ready our dept is.
With this system will it matter how prepared a dept is?

[ADSN/WFLD]

State Farm has done what should have been done long ago. They are looking at what realy happens and not what someone thinks will happen when a fire starts.

If your department has an aggressive FPB, good building codes, adequate well trained manpower, good dispatching, and water (by hydrant or tanker) you will have low fire losses. Theirfore your residents will pay lower insurance rates.

However if you routinely leave a fire scene with only the foundation left then your residents will pay, understandably, higher rates.

[LHS*]

//So will ISO charge these smaller companys more to take up the slack?

Not likely, simply State Farm won't be asking or buying wat they no logerneed. Don't miss the point though, State Farm is still using the commercial factors. Ie, a 5 million dollar walmat will pay 17,000 a year for a Class 2 and 11,000 for a class 1.

//If they don't and go to some formula of thier own where will that leave us?

It is a market economy, 80% still follow market regulations. It could be the unregulated go out of business, ie PGE in California and lots of airlines who had other problems and cutting costs is just a symptom.

/What standard will we be judged by?

There loss data

//If we have a bad year with lots of fires everybodys rates go up?

yep.

//We can't control people who do stupid things and start fires.

nope


//We can control how ready our dept is.

yep

//With this system will it matter how prepared a dept is?

nope

//ADSN/WFLD State Farm has done what should have been done long ago. They are looking at what realy happens and not what someone thinks will happen when a fire starts.

Cool, the water supply portion of ISO is based upon the NFPA and model building codes. So should we ban the codes to?

The fire department and communication portion is based upon NFPA.

Should we ban NFPA too?

//If your department has an aggressive FPB, good building codes, adequate well trained manpower, good dispatching, and water (by hydrant or tanker) you will have low fire losses.

ADSN/WFLD State has a fire death rate 5 times higher than Utah and is the 11th worst in the US. So they should on a measure like that pay five times higher insurance or at least higher rates than 39 other states. Even with all the codes, and apparatus he talks about.

Where you live in Indiana the 18th best state you should get a break but you're four ties worse than Hawaii. If youlive in alaska youar 15 times worse off.

You don't control your fire loss, Oakland lost 5000 buildings in one day, will it ever happen again? Most of the insurance folks pulled out after the fire, 3 years later most homes were not rebuilt. Have a disaster have a rate increase. Texas was the last state to use the entire insurance picture to set rates, exactly what State Farm intends. Every time it hailed in Fort Worth everyone's rates rose state wide. Texas went to ISO to ballance rates.

// Theirfore your residents will pay lower insurance rates.

Not likely froma carrier charing1/3 more than average.

//However if you routinely leave a fire scene with only the foundation left then your residents will pay, understandably, higher rates.

Nah, just change carriers.

[EastKyFF]

We have been busting various body parts--and spending lots of cash--to get ISO points over the years, and now that work and money are lost for roughly 30% of our citizens. This is highly irritating. While imperfect, ISO is nothing if not fair, and I believe it's realistic.

Would I like to get credit for some things we currently don't (thermal imaging camera, etc.) and be free to deep-six outdated elements of ISO (hose jacket, hose clamp)? Sure I would. But this is the framework within which our department's entire 20-year existence has been built. We're millimeters from a split 6/9 rating, pending a survey in three weeks. I do not want us to lose that benefit for the people who bought it.

Incidentally, ZIP codes are a sorry way to map this. Our county has had several tiny post offices taken over by the county seat's PO & they now have that PO's ZIP code. Yet those communities are way, way, way out from PO's, FD's, and everything else. In fact, when you leave the city, you go through other ZIPs before returning to the city's ZIP out in the country. Under ISO, you would travel from Class 4 to Class 9, then to Class 10. State Farm's system would be like going from Class 4 to Class 9, then back to Class 4.

Are the residents out there going to get the benefit of the city's combination FD (to which they pay zero taxes), even though a local vol. FD covers them? Will the losses in those areas--and they're high--inflate premiums for city residents?

And as the son of a retired letter carrier, I know firsthand that a major priority of the USPS is to eliminate the tiny post offices. Thus there will eventually be thousands of households in my county and others like it where well-protected city residents and ill-protected remote residents will split premiums. Good deal for country, bad for city.

I do not like State Farm's idea here. I see what they're getting at, but it's like saying that since we can't find the car keys, we should ride a turtle to work.

p.s. These are my opinions and don't necessarily reflect those of the remainder of my FD.

[JAMESBENNETT]

I don't think anything could be worse than the ISO rating system. This system is in place to help the insurance companies anyway. It was said earlier that the maps they were charged with making would make these insurance companies millions of dollars each year, regardless of the fire loss factor. I belong to a small department with a class "6" rating in town and a class "9" out of town. I have people that live across the street from one another paying a 30% difference in premiums. Whether I have a hose patch or not the response to these properties will be the same. The State Farm Agent here in town works with us to give our people everything with-in our scope to protect them and their property.

We have a pretty good save record on slabs(haven't lost one yet), but we do save a lot of structure's as well. My department is close to a large metropolitan area with a multi-million dollar budget and I can tell you how many firehouses and men/women on staff and I've seen them burn'um down with the best of us vollie's. They have a class "3"rating, but hey they have all the trucks and all the hose patches. Fire protection should be judge on your department saves vs loss ratio. If I burn down Wally-World(Wal-Mart) here insurance would be the least of everyone's worries. They are the eight largest employer in the county.

All I am trying to say is I welcome the chance to have an agent, that see's us work, come in and tell us, "I will be selling insurance based our these reasons" and have it mean something to me instead of someone who is looking at an inventory sheet and a map!

------------------
SERVING FOR PRIDE
PROUD TO SERVE!

[LHS*]

JAMESBENNETT

Does the Class 9 rating fairly reflect the fact you cannot meet NFPA fire flow requirements of 250 gpm sustaioned for 2 hours or more?

Doesn't a Class 6 indicate you cannot achieve the needed fire flows in your community, that you are short of firefighters,that dispatch is not uo to code, you don't train enough, are missing needed fire equipment, etc???

[Dalmatian90]

I think James Bennet's comment reflects some of the arbitraryness.

We're class 5 out to 2000' from a hydrant. At 2001' we're 9. Does that extra foot affect firefighting effectiveness? How do you best prove that? From only a rating schedule or actual historical loss data? A combination of the two that show you have a staffed & equipped fire department along with historically good performance on fire loss?

[ffeng]

You know what LHS, I almost never do this, but this stuff you peddle, what a joke. You're an absolute expert in everything from water supply to ISO, to fire growth, to the insurance market, etc. aren't you?

Here's the world according to LHS. All of the FDs are going to get their citizens to pay for millions of dollars in apparatus because that will lower the depts ISO rating. ISO's going to improve all the departments ratings and all of the insurance companies, not even looking at their actual loss or expense ratios or loss experience, are just going to start lowering everybodys premiums. All of the boards of directors of these companies are going to say, "well, let's give credit where credit is due - that LHS is something else. Look at those 2500 gwt pumpers, save a slab and still have 1000 gallons left in the tank" "OK, from here on out, our revenues will go down, our loss ratios may get worse - but hey, got to do it - the ISO ratings rule." And I'm sure you're widely known on Wall Street. All of the financial analysts that monitor the insurance industry are going to report "oh, don't worry about those revenues going down, or those poor loss ratios, the FD's have better ISO ratings." Your going to flip Wall Street and capitalism upside down aren't you LHS? Revenues, growth, profit, loss and expense ratios, none of that will matter.

The ISO ratings don't mean anything unless the financial losses to the insurance companies go down. Business is business and if lowering FD ratings doesn't reduce losses - guess what? Then the market will change so that the insurance companies can operate based on expected financial measures. Oh, but LHS says that the States will force the insurance companies into operating in a rate structure that bankrupts them- oh just like the fine situation California is in for power. LHS, you know little about the insurance industry and even less about business. You don't know one of the most basic principles of insurance - that losses are ultimately paid for by the insureds. All insurance does is spread risk. If losses occur, someone is going to pay for those losses and it will not be the insurance company. The financial loss is paid for by the insureds. So go ahead and play the ISO game. If premiums are lowered and losses are not, then that premium will be paid for by other insureds. I love some of these posts - reward us for being a better fire department. But I thought this was about helping the citizens get better insurance rates?

Here the fire service goes again. Looking for the easy way out. We'll get the insurance companies to buy us new equipment.Like their not going to figure that out.

You're so naive LHS. I remember you quoting that State Farm exec as support for your "work." You'll pull anything from anywhere to "support" your position and you don't have a clue what the real issues are.

Oh, yeh. Take a look at the MO CHURCH FIRE on the Firehouse home page. That's a pretty big fire wouldn't you say? Oh, I forgot, that can't be a real fire though. In reality, we all know that fires don't grow that fast. But I know, if the Rattlesnake special would have pulled up on that, they would have been in church the next day. (that truck would have poured 10x the water on that slab- what a stop!)Ha Ha!
Keep the jokes coming LHS, you make me laugh.

[chief14]

We are just beginning the ISO process in our small volunteer company. I have found LHS' info to be helpful. Perhaps I am wrong here but I see this as a yardstick to help measure our needs. I feel that if we improve our rating we will be a better fire company and should therefore have less losses leading to savings for the insurance companies. Seems logical enough. Sure, there will be those that will be, as we say, foundation saves and there isn't much that a Class 7 or 1 could do. But, for the majority of calls, a better trained company should perform better. Add to that the benefits from the spirit in the station that a good rating can give and the manpower problems may decrease. People like to be associated with winners. Plus, if one company does this perhaps the neighbors will too and who knows what... I don't see this as only a ploy to get new toys or big a-- trucks.

Just my thoughts-for what they are worth!

[LHS*]

//You're an absolute expert in everything from water supply to ISO, to fire growth, to the insurance market, etc.

Thank you, you’re very kind. Coming from an alleged FPE that is really something.


//Here's the world according to… All of the FDs are going to get their citizens to pay for millions of dollars in apparatus because that will lower the depts ISO rating. ISO's going to improve all the departments ratings and all of the insurance companies, not even looking at their actual loss or expense ratios or loss experience, are just going to start lowering everybodys premiums.

Exactly! Oh, its not my world, it is the one you live in. That is in fact what all 100% of the companies have done for 90 years isn’t it???

//"well, let's give credit where credit is due

Not sure what all the directors say but I did post a quote from the director of the largest company and that is exactly what he said. And what the industry is required by law to do in 48 states.

//Look at those 2500 gwt pumpers, save a slab and still have 1000 gallons left in the tank"

Are you sure about that? We don’t build with slabs out here. The average fire loss here is half yours. Our injury rates are 11 times lower and or death rates are lower too. As an alleged FPE what other state has sprinkled every single high rise? So, I doubt you’ll have to worry about our slabs. Did you know we pay the lowest insurance rates in our state?

//"OK, from here on out, our revenues will go down, our loss ratios may get worse - but hey, got to do it - the ISO ratings rule."

Regulated by state law in 48 states.

// And I'm sure you're widely known on Wall Street. All of the financial analysts that monitor the insurance industry are going to report "oh, don't worry about those revenues going down, or those poor loss ratios, the FD's have better ISO ratings." Your going to flip Wall Street and capitalism upside

I don’t know anything about that.

//Revenues, growth, profit, loss and expense ratios, none of that will matter.

Why is that?

//The ISO ratings don't mean anything unless the financial losses to the insurance companies go down.

Gee why are they lowering so many readers on this forums rates?

//Business is business and if lowering FD ratings doesn't reduce losses - guess what? Then the market will change so that the insurance companies can operate based on expected financial measures.

Oh, they must be making money then, they are still giving breaks/

Why are all these companies picking towns with better grades to relocate businesses? Why does every progresive chamber of commerce brochure publish the town ISO rating?

//says that the States will force the insurance companies into operating in a rate structure that bankrupts them-

I did where and when?

//oh just like the fine situation California is in for power.

Really?

// you know little about the insurance industry and even less about business. You don't know one of the most basic principles of insurance

I’m sorry


//- that losses are ultimately paid for by the insureds.

NO KIDDING???????????????

///All insurance does is spread risk.

Oh I see, like an FD with a Class 9 pays more than an FD with a Class 1????????????

/// If losses occur, someone is going to pay for those losses and it will not be the insurance company.

Oh they’ll ask the arsonist to pay for it? So who do we call after a fire, the fire chief or the insurance man?

//The financial loss is paid for by the insureds.

No I’m sure we call the insurance guy.

///So go ahead and play the ISO game.

I already did, it took 72 hours to replace all of our fire trucks, stations and loose equipment. We promised the citizens if you buy us all this stuff we will go from a Class 10/9/8/5 to a 1/3. Dang it worked and the insurance game gave us all money back and brought all kinds of new businesses to the county.

They only bought BUCK 13 trucks, and SCOOK 11, and STATION2 2 rigs, and ANMS 21 rigs, 5 stations and boosted their operating budget $½ mil a year but they couldn’t expect much they only devoted 45 days to the project and they only cover 10,000 people. BTHD 9 rigs, ANVL 6.7 mil, SSTX 7.7 mil, RDDF 4 mil, BIGPAULIE 22 rigs, increased staffing by 160 and stations by 40% in one year.

I know these things take a long time

//I love some of these posts - reward us for being a better fire department. But I thought this was about helping the citizens get better insurance rates?

Same thing, but of course feel free to call the President of State Farm he said it not me.

Gee if I improve the water system to improve the grading doesn't that improve fire protection too? If I put the 4th guy on the rigs to get an extra point aren't we a better FD? When we decide the class 9 thingsucks and figure out hoew to shulttle to lower our grade aren't we better prepared to fight fire? When we follow the codedon't we avoid living the photo on the home page of fire house, the church fire?

//Here the fire service goes again.

Where’d they go?

// Looking for the easy way out.

Yeah we should stay with the old ways of closing stations and getting by with less.

//We'll get the insurance companies to buy us new equipment.

You mean we shouldn’t? That is exactly what they do in New Mexico. They pay cash to every fire department in the state every single year based upon their ISO rating. It makes the FIRE BILL look like a joke. They get $42 million to divide up based on the number of stations and whether they are a Class 10, 9 , 8 , 7, etc.
Could you use $450,000 every single year for fire stuff?


//like their not going to figure that out.

Gee they’ve been doing it like this for 90 years. Only 12 years of paying out millions in New Mexico, how long will it take them to figure it ot?

//Your so naïve

Oh I know, my kids came home with some works today I had no idea what, throwin’ smoke or knockin’ boots meant.

//you don't have a clue what the real issues are.

Gee I thought it was there is unlimited money out there if you want it. Gee why did the insurance industry sponsor me at a statewide seminar recently? Oh that’s right, they wanted someone to come in and teach the fire departments the value of good fire protection. Want to know why? They couldn’t write insurance for ISO Class 9 and 10 properties (30% of all fd’s grade). So by helping they would be able to expand their business possibilities.


// Take a look at the MO CHURCH FIRE That's a pretty big fire wouldn't you say? I know, if the Rattlesnake special would have pulled up on that

No they wouldn’t they used their own budget last year to fully sprinkle 50% of their business district. It wouldn’t have burned. Why don’t you hammer on someone your own size? They lowered their rating from a Class 9/10 to a Class 4. Their residents now get back 600 to 850 dollars a year because of it. Their chief is a Farmers agent, he’s very happy. He knows exactly what he is saving.

// you make me laugh.

That’s nice.

[MetalMedic]

I just wanted to caution anyone following this thread who has not also followed the thread titled "Scotty, Raise the Shield's... ISO is Coming!" That you need to take a look there before you take everything stated about ISO here as "gospel."

In a nutshell... be aware that what standard ISO uses in your state may not be the same standards that are used in another state.

------------------
Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.


[This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited 02-14-2001).]

[LHS*]

//In a nutshell... be aware that what standard ISO uses in your state may not be the same standards that are used in another state.

CARE TO ELABORATE OR IS THIS TOP SECRET?????

EVEN ISO DOESN'T LIStS ONE EXCEPTION FOR ohio.


Published Exceptions


In Alaska, Arizona, California, Nevada, Oregon, Illinois and Utah credit for a Class 9 dwelling goes to 10 road miles from a responding fire station.

Where the majority of the U.S. gets 19.6 square miles of coverage per station whereas the listed states get 78.54 square miles per station.

Ohio holds the ISO™ rating to 5 miles and 6 road miles 28.2 square miles for dwelling properties.

West Virginia offers a Class 8 out to 6 miles if a hydrant is within 1000 feet. If the hydrant is further than 1000 feet a Class 9 applies out to 6 miles.

Wisconsin offers credit to 6 miles for Class 9’s.

Kansas offers a 5 and 10 mile Farm Property rating that no other state offers. In a nutshell if you have 500 gallons of water and meet all the Class 9 requirements you get 5 mile farm credit. If you have 1500 gallons of water carried on two rigs with 500 minimum per rig, a 250 gpm pump, the ability to transfer water to the pumper, a gated wye and carry 800 feet of additional fire hose over the Class 9 requirement you get 10 mile credit.

Six western states, Alaska, Arizona, California, Nevada, Oregon and Utah also get relief 43 other states do not receive. They do not have to move 250 gpm for 2 hours which requires a 30,000 gallon water supply like everyone else. They get the Western States Dwelling Class 8 that applies only to dwellings if they have 4000 gallons of water on wheels and a Class A pumper. The first unit must be no further than 5 miles from the property protected and the balance of the apparatus within 8 road miles. Five firefighters must respond. If they can provide demonstrate 200 gpm for 20 minutes beginning within 5 minutes of the arrival of the first fire apparatus and flow without interruption they earn a Dwelling Class 8. The Dwelling 8 applies from 0 to 8 road miles from the responding station a full 50.26 square miles versus 19.6 square miles for a department who can flow a lot more water. Those seven states also offer a Class 9 to cover where the 8 leaves off all the way out to 10 miles. Some insurance companies only require 2500 gallons for a Class 8 rating.

In New Mexico a Class 8B exists that offers some of the benefits of a Dwelling Class 8. It recognizes rural fire protection services over a Class 9. A 8B means the department has some water hauling ability that is less than the 250 gpm requirement for 2 hours required for a Class 8 or better Eventually community loss statistics in these areas rated 8B could result in an insurance break. A 8B requires scoring 5 points in communications and 20 points in Fire Department. The department must respond with an average of 6 firefighters to structure fires. Conduct 24 hours of training per firefighter per year. The first out pump capacity has to be at least 250 gpm at 150 psi. The department must demonstrate the ability to flow 200 gpm uninterrupted for 20 minutes within 5 minutes of arrival of the first fire truck in 85% of the response area within 5 miles of the fire station. Automatic aid companies can be used.

Texas awards 6.5 points extra credit beyond the 100 point schedule training, CAFS, adoption of a model fire code, in service inspections, staffing of the fire prevention and inspection offices, plans review, prevention, public education, and arson investigation. Texas will soon add another 1.5 points for departments responding with a compressed air foam pumper on all structure fires.

If a Class 9 fire department is within 10 road miles they will receive a Crop Protection Class of 1. The units must be off road capable and the organization must have three apparatus two of which must be capable of pump and roll.

The excuse ISO™ uses for all the variations is those were the rules at the time they adopted the rating schedule. Texas adopted the schedule 2 years ago and is the only state with extra credit.

If you are being told there are others, the writers of the rating schedule would like to know: call ISO at (800) 444-4554.
[email protected] (Gage, Dennis N.),
[email protected] (Straw, Edward F.) Senior Technical Coordinator Tel. (770) 923-9898 ext. 214,


[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-15-2001).]

[MetalMedic]

Originally posted by LHS*:
//In a nutshell... be aware that what standard ISO uses in your state may not be the same standards that are used in another state.

CARE TO ELABORATE OR IS THIS TOP SECRET?????

No secrets here... just the facts man. We just finished an inspection, and the ISO person told us that he had to do some ISO inspections in Texas and had to do a lot of research before he could do them there.

Maybe your sources think they know it all.. maybe this inspector was full of hot air. All I know is, that the advise you were giving on the other topic thread was WRONG... so I don't want to see someone else who is struggling to improve themselves lose their ratings becuase of your bad advise.


------------------
Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.


[This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited 02-14-2001).]