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  • #46
    FWIW, I think that the NFPA 1001 standard for FF certification handles this question pretty well. Essentially it says that every certified firefighter should be trained in infection control, CPR, and how to control bleeding. That's all the baseline EMS training a "firefighter" needs: basic first aid and CPR.

    The question of more EMS training and/or certification only arises if your local department desires for its members to be something else in addition to being firefighters. Many departments want to do just that.

    So to me the answer is, no, there is no need for firefighters to be EMTs or above. The real question is, does your department expect it's members to perform any emergency services other than firefighting?
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 02-15-2007, 03:09 PM.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
    sigpic
    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    • #47
      Questioning the messenger.

      Originally posted by FDAIC485 View Post
      You always have to question the messenger on this one. If you show me a firefighter that does not want to provide EMS in some form or fashion, I'll show you a person you will find in front of the TV or in bed sleeping at the earliest possible moment.
      Yeah, Right! I'll show you a thousand FIREMEN that are tapping their fingers, just waiting until they can pull the plug and retire because they don't want anything to do with the Emergency Medical Scenario. Do you really think a guy who came on the job to fight fire wants to have some AIDS "Victim" try to shoot a hocker in his eye.

      For a hundred years FIREMEN would run all day and night and never complain. Sure we would take a nap if we could. In a busy house, the beds were in whenever you got a chance because you were going to run all night and have to work the side job the next day so you could buy shoes for your kids. We might come back from a fire and have a beer (Sacrilegious), play cards, whatever. But when the Bell rang we did our job and loved doing it. If a guy on duty called you at home and asked you to fill in for a few hours so he could go to his child's school play or something.. You told him to take the whole night off. That was the cameraderie of the BROTHERS on a busy Fire Company. We loved the job. It isn't like that anymore. Too bad you never experienced it and never will.

      There's a WORD that was born with the advent of the EMS... "BURNOUT" ... It's your word. We never used it no matter how bad a beating we took. So if some of you guys want to play Doctor go run out of the Health Department and quit screwing up the Fire Department....

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      • #48
        Amen Rockie. It is sad these wanabe nurses will never understand.

        FTM-PTB

        PS-JHR1985, I haven't forgotten...Harry Reams!

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        • #49
          The 1970's called...

          They want their argument back.
          IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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          • #50
            Originally posted by FDAIC485 View Post
            Now to the full-time FD's......the answer is Yes. If you are a career firefighter and you are not at least a basic, that FD's administration should all have their heads examined and/or fired. I know the FD that I work for would not have half the personnel or equipment if we did not provide EMS first responder and transport. You always have to question the messenger on this one. If you show me a firefighter that does not want to provide EMS in some form or fashion, I'll show you a person you will find in front of the TV or in bed sleeping at the earliest possible moment.
            I'll go for the EMT thing because it makes us look good to the councils and it's advantageous in certain ways. I probably wouldn't have a job if we didn't have EMS.

            However.

            I drive a truck. If I never for the rest of my entire career, make another EMS run, I will be happy. I hate the EMS tones as I hate Hell. It doesn't make me a bad EMT. People survive to call 911 another day most of the time, unless God or somebody with a gun and decent aim doesn't want them to. I don't typically hit the bed, I climb my aerial at least once a tour so I can control my bowels if I have to do it on a call, I throw ladders at the station to practice, I eat. I often stand while watching TV. I walk out to the apparatus floor to wave at the guys on the squad and ambulance when they leave.

            Your assertion has been defeated. Since we cannot see it, would you please describe how you writhed in defeat?
            Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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            • #51
              Rockie I can tell you are a southside man. I used to love visiting at 45/15 and 84/51. It was a completely different world then my little suburban existence. Well the times have changed a bit. 45 dosent run a 10th of the fires they used to. 61 is long gone. The CFD sends almost 35 people to a bungalow fire. There is a new re-hab policy. There is no more blue room "meetings" after a fire. Many of the model citizens of Bronzeville, Kenwood and someday Englewood have or will be displaced and shipped out here by the yuppie invasion. Is this the fault of EMS ? Many suburban guys like myself were able to become carreer firefighters out here because of the paramedic program. I spent my time on the ambulance and now can proudly say that I started a whopping 6 IV'S in 2006. I dont make many ambulance runs anymore. Do I like EMS runs? Not really. I have saved a life or two in my day as a medic and that is something I will always be proud of. My little lowly suburban "nurse wannabes" (nice Fred) and me out here in the beautiful southland east of 57 are catching our fair share of fires. The only difference is that the departrments that dont have paramedics make less money, have less manpower and are having a tough go of it. Anybody remember when Harvey dropped the ambulance circa 1990 ? The men were thrilled. More men on the rigs and off the meat wagon....That was a funny one. All it did was eliminate 4 spots a day.
              IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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              • #52
                The answer to the question should be asked with another question before it is answered...... whoa... try saying that one over and over....


                Why did I become a paramedic?

                Did I do it to save people? No
                Did I do it get rich? Hahahaha... No

                Then why did I do it?

                I did it to BECOME a firefighter.....

                when did that happen....

                Do I want to be a medic? Not really but that doesnt take away the factor that I do enjoy it. I enjoy it the best when I drive the engine and all I have to do is do an IV, tube somebody, and then get out of the ambulance and off it goes.

                Does that make me a bad person? No, not really.

                But, here is something that I was thinking about today and how sad it really was.

                You take someone who gets hired on a department that provides EMS coverage. That new guy will spend along time on that medic because he is low man. Even when they rotate... you spend the majority of that time on the medic.

                So, what is the next promotion? Is the next promotion to ride the engine full time? No it isnt. Its to drive the engine full time.

                So, say someone meets the minimum 2 year requirement and tests for the driver spot and gets it(I am not saying this is a bad thing.) So, you got someone with basically 2 years in as a ambo jockey with a few fires if he gets lucky.

                Another year later, depending on SOP's, he is acting up as an officer and a year after that he is an officer. What have you got now? You got someone with 4 years in with minimal fire expierence working as an officer. This happens A LOT

                But, the hindsight is that a lot of departments would not be here or wouldnt be here in their current form without that Ambo.

                So, should all FF's be EMT's? No.

                But, it all depends where you work at. Some should, some shouldnt.


                And FFFRED... let me know when New York warms up. I would like to visit New York but us Texas boys dont do too good in cold weather
                The Box. You opened it. We Came...

                "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
                  Rockie I can tell you are a southside man. I used to love visiting at 45/15 and 84/51. It was a completely different world then my little suburban existence. Well the times have changed a bit. 45 dosent run a 10th of the fires they used to. 61 is long gone. The CFD sends almost 35 people to a bungalow fire. There is a new re-hab policy. There is no more blue room "meetings" after a fire. Many of the model citizens of Bronzeville, Kenwood and someday Englewood have or will be displaced and shipped out here by the yuppie invasion. Is this the fault of EMS ? Many suburban guys like myself were able to become carreer firefighters out here because of the paramedic program. I spent my time on the ambulance and now can proudly say that I started a whopping 6 IV'S in 2006. I dont make many ambulance runs anymore. Do I like EMS runs? Not really. I have saved a life or two in my day as a medic and that is something I will always be proud of. My little lowly suburban "nurse wannabes" (nice Fred) and me out here in the beautiful southland east of 57 are catching our fair share of fires. The only difference is that the departrments that dont have paramedics make less money, have less manpower and are having a tough go of it. Anybody remember when Harvey dropped the ambulance circa 1990 ? The men were thrilled. More men on the rigs and off the meat wagon....That was a funny one. All it did was eliminate 4 spots a day.

                  Sounds like youve seen much of the same as I have when it comes to FDs and EMS. Ive spent all my time on the job in an FD run EMS county. And while I dont care for it, FD EMS is here to stay, at least in my area. And for the FDs here, EMS has been like hitting the lottery. More staffing, more rigs, more stations, better pay.

                  In the 24 years Ive been on the job, Ive seen 4 of the 5 FDs that didnt jump on the EMS bandwagon die. The 5th now runs EMS. One of the 4 that closed was one I worked for. Yes, Ive been through the joy that is haveing your FD close. Something Im sure most here never even fathom. Its like haveing your heart ripped out of your chest.

                  Why did it happen? In our case, we couldnt justify our jobs with the number of fire we ran. We would sit and watch EMS units from other FDs run by our house daily. We werent the only ones who noticed. So did our politicos. They figured hey, if that other FD can run EMS in our town they can run the few fires as well. The "we need our station just in case or if" feel on deaf ears. What happened with the other non-EMS FDs was much the same.

                  The point Im trying to make is dont discount EMS. You may need it someday, if you want to keep your job. And all your bravado about "firefighters fight fire" and "I didnt join the FD to get spit on by an AIDS patient" will do you little good. The politicos only see run numbers and $$$.

                  And again, Im not talking about the big cities, so easy Fred, brother Chicago.
                  Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                  IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                  "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                  RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                  Success is when skill meets opportunity
                  Failure is when fantasy meets reality

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by FDAIC485 View Post
                    And, I don't get involved in the "who's ax is bigger" competition.
                    Really? I'm shocked.... Next time you want to tell someone that they are lazy because they don't like ems or that they don't catch fires anymore you should be prepared to show them how big your axe is, because you better be in a big, bad, busy department before you start calling guys dogs. Just because you like it doesn't mean I have to, and until you beat me out the door on runs I wouldn't assume you know what my job is like if I were you. Get back on the ambo............
                    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 02-16-2007, 02:44 PM.
                    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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                    • #55
                      Engine 84

                      Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
                      Rockie I can tell you are a southside man. I used to love visiting at 45/15 and 84/51. It was a completely different world then my little suburban existence. Well the times have changed a bit.
                      Southside it was. E-18 when they were burning down everything except Little Italy. Then transfered to E-84 after the King riots. I know things have changed. I guess I just hated to see it. A lot of my friends are gone or on the brink of retiring, and the only thing holding them, is timing (Pension, Furlough, Etc.) You got to leave at the right time to get the most,.. money wise. So far all have said they are leaving because they don't enjoy the job anymore. Too bad..

                      I'll make this quick as possible. I retired where God lost his shoes. I moved down here a few years ago wanting nothing to do but fish. The local Fire Dept. got a pumper from some outfit on the East coast and nobody could seem to drive it properly or put it through it's paces. (Not Rocket stuff) But they asked me to show them because I retired as an Engineer. It's a Mack Diesel that's over 20 years old but a really nice rig. These rigs do have a tight shifting pattern,.. but throttle up to downshift and vise versa didn't compute with them. (The words Synchro and Mesh mean nothing) and when I told them double clutch they start looking for a second clutch pedal. Anyway I'm now the Engineer. Thankfully they don't have many runs. They are really a nice group of young people, and Gung Ho. But they couldn't fight a fire in their pants.... The Chief and Asst. Chief have to put the fires out.. We're working on that.

                      The amazing thing about it, is the walls are papered with Certificates, a ton of them. They have traveled all over the country taking courses from NIMS to NUTS. Also they all have brand new equipment.. (3 different FEMA Grants)Scotts, extra bottles, gloves, boots, $1700 turnout gear, a new $75,000 brush truck. Still when the tone goes Boop-Boop it's like a clusted F##k.

                      Anyway they think I'm the best Fireman/Driver/Fountain of information in the world (Since they don't know any others I didn't tell them different)

                      How we got on the topic... End of story... The First Responding thing has been brought up and I tell them I will commit suicide if they do. (I think they believe me)

                      3/4 Boots Forever.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
                        Rockie I can tell you are a southside man. I used to love visiting at 45/15 and 84/51. It was a completely different world then my little suburban existence. Well the times have changed a bit. 45 dosent run a 10th of the fires they used to. 61 is long gone. The CFD sends almost 35 people to a bungalow fire. There is a new re-hab policy. There is no more blue room "meetings" after a fire. Many of the model citizens of Bronzeville, Kenwood and someday Englewood have or will be displaced and shipped out here by the yuppie invasion. Is this the fault of EMS ? Many suburban guys like myself were able to become carreer firefighters out here because of the paramedic program. I spent my time on the ambulance and now can proudly say that I started a whopping 6 IV'S in 2006. I dont make many ambulance runs anymore. Do I like EMS runs? Not really. I have saved a life or two in my day as a medic and that is something I will always be proud of. My little lowly suburban "nurse wannabes" (nice Fred) and me out here in the beautiful southland east of 57 are catching our fair share of fires. The only difference is that the departrments that dont have paramedics make less money, have less manpower and are having a tough go of it. Anybody remember when Harvey dropped the ambulance circa 1990 ? The men were thrilled. More men on the rigs and off the meat wagon....That was a funny one. All it did was eliminate 4 spots a day.
                        I can understand your view, however you could also look at it another way...

                        You say fires are down in a certain area of Chicago. Down compared to what? 30 years ago, why not compare to 40 or 50 years if we are going to arbitrailly pick a set of years which are an aberation statistically speaking and would be thrown out in any analysis, much like NYC doesn't count the Happy Land Social club fire or WTC towards statics in fire deaths...why not pick 1947 as the baseline year and one would probably see in many companies, fires and runs are dramaticlly up.

                        The fire service in many cities was victimized by clown polticans who have taken advantage of our committment and I'm sure the CFD members took on much more fire duty than they should of just like that of their FDNY counterparts. Compared to Pre-1962 around here we run more fires and emergencies than in the decades prior, yet no one questioned the need for the fire department, no one demanded they be doing other things to pass the time. Why is it we allow these suits to portray us in this light?

                        You and many others mention how you really don't care for EMS runs...what kind of service do think this provides the "customers" vs. a city that hires EMS EMTs and Medics who don't see that career as a necessary evil in getting an appointment as a fireman?

                        All that cost and $$$ for medic or EMT-I certs and you say you started 6 IVs in a year and some argue that EMS justifies the FD jobs?...by that number EMS doesn't even justify itself.

                        As for this city that cut out ambulances, apparently their union didn't do something right in the negoitations if they lost man power...but if they increased their availability and decreased their exposure to disease and skells apartments...I don't see how they could be disapointed, it increased their level of fire service and readiness.

                        Sure as everyone states, you make a few more shekels. But is it worth exposing oneself to some crackwhore with open sores? Some AIDS patient with TB or Hep? Around here I'd gladly make $2000 less and not expose myself and in turn my family to the filth and disease. Not to mention the city would have to do what they should have done all along, hire more EMTs and Medics who can support their familes on decent salaries and do what they want to do and that is work on an ambulance taking in EMS runs.

                        JMHO.

                        FTM-PTB
                        Last edited by FFFRED; 02-16-2007, 02:14 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Rockie
                          taking courses from NIMS to NUTS
                          That is an instant classic in my book!

                          FTM-PTB

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            There's probably a decent case for BLS at least up to defibrilation.

                            EMS folks themselves are saying that ALS isn't all that effective in most cases (yes, I'll go back through the 3 or 4 different publications where I read this and give you cites if I really have to.) If that's true, why should anyone other than EMS do it?
                            I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Around here I'd gladly make $2000 less and not expose myself and in turn my family to the filth and disease

                              I think most would agree... unless they cant part with that 2000.

                              There is a city around here that is like 300,000 that to be a FF... all u gotta do is be an EMT.... but to promote... you have to get your medic and THEN you ride the ambo as an engineer. THere is another one where to ride the ambo... there is a list to do so. Why? Because they pay more.

                              If departments did that... it would solve some of the problems. But, the older guys would kinda get the shaft.



                              And you just gotta love Rockie.
                              3/4 Boots Forever.
                              The only times I've been in south chicago was when I got lost in Hyde Park... which I dont know if you would consider that the south side... plus last time my hotel was by McCormick Plaza on Cermack and MLK.

                              I get so freaking tired of the "Well, if they do it, then we have to do it attitude."

                              NFPA recommends this... then we HAVE to do it.

                              Neighboring department.... does this so we HAVE to do it.

                              I hope the craze of making sure everyone on a truck is medic's will go away. I know not everyone is doing it but it seems like a lot are and its a real waste of limited resources.

                              You and many others mention how you really don't care for EMS runs...what kind of service do think this provides the "customers" vs. a city that hires EMS EMTs and Medics who don't see that career as a necessary evil in getting an appointment as a fireman?
                              FFFRED... I agree very much with what you have said. But, most cities dont do what FDNY and CFD does by having a part of the Fire department provide EMS, 3rd city service basically.

                              I'm sure I'll get in trouble for saying this, but most would rather just hire a private company and NOT ALL... but a lot of have seen a decrease in funding and a decrease in level of care. (some have seen a rise in level of care also).

                              But, IT should be done by those who want to do it, not by those who are forced to do it. But... in a lot of area's, most do want to do it because of the crappy pay and benefits. But, if they get hired on a FD, they get better pay and better benefits and they fight fire too. Everything great rolled into one.
                              The Box. You opened it. We Came...

                              "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JHR1985 View Post
                                FFFRED... I agree very much with what you have said. But, most cities dont do what FDNY and CFD does by having a part of the Fire department provide EMS, 3rd city service basically.
                                And why is that? Chiefs and unions with out backbones and the ability to articulate the importance of the fire departments mission. Guys who will just make the catch-all excuse that the "customer" expects this and take on more duties and roles without proper compesation for them and their familes. And furthermore many guys could stand to be a bit more selfless and see the truth that if they didn't jump all over this EMS nonsense for chump change that the cities would have to hire and train moer people that are dedicated to this very important job(EMS) and not farm it out to the city agency who willing to whore themselves out for any BS job the city fathers don't want to pay full price for.

                                FTM-PTB

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