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Should All FF's be EMT's or above

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  • #16
    I feel it should be required to be atleast a first responder.Whats the thoughts when a fd with no medical training gets a mva with entrapment along with serious trauma. They cut the vehicle and yank the pt out just to sit them on the ground or what not then they stare at them until a squad arrives or what not. I think the fr class is only 40 hours, and even keeping up with a emt card is'nt that big of a problem.Thats all for now.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
      IMO, it very much depends on the type of department.

      In the US, I think there is a the public in general has an expectation in most communties that a paid (either fully piad or combo) will deliver some form of EMS. It may be first response with a private/third service transport or a fire department first response and/or transport. The fire service, in fact, has created this expectation in the public's mind.
      In my time, in three very different departments, I would say the first thing I hear 90% of the time is something similar to this... "I called for an ambulance we don't need no firemans here." "Why do they send you?" or something along those lines.

      The idea that the public expects this, from my expereince is internally generated within departments full of azz-kissers (or those who owe their jobs to poltical patronage) who are looking to have their men do more work for less money. The public in the vast majority of cases doesn't expect this and only considers it a nice gesture and certainly not anything they come to demand or feel entitled to and that includes people who get more than their share of Entitlements, (Public housing, public assistance, WIC, Food stamps...etc.)

      FTM-PTB

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      • #18
        Originally posted by dday05 View Post
        I feel it should be required to be atleast a first responder.Whats the thoughts when a fd with no medical training gets a mva with entrapment along with serious trauma. They cut the vehicle and yank the pt out just to sit them on the ground or what not then they stare at them until a squad arrives or what not. I think the fr class is only 40 hours, and even keeping up with a emt card is'nt that big of a problem.Thats all for now.
        I believe Baltimore City requires everybody to go through EMT-A course as part of the academy. I seem to recall helping a buddy on the bookwork who made it in there.

        I agree you need at least the basics (whatever passes for that in your jurisdiction). My wife is getting tired of me saying "Make sure you move his spine around alot" when watching the television fire & EMS fiction.

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        • #19
          "Make sure you move his spine around alot" when watching the television fire & EMS fiction.
          And here, I thought I was the only one who said things like that.
          If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

          "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

          "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

          Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

          impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

          IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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          • #20
            Over half of our work is at EMS related jobs. You need to have a level of training that supports what we go on.
            If half of your calls were Haz Mat would you not support guys being Haz Mat techs? If 500 out of 1,000 calls were confined space rescues wouldn't you all be CS tech?
            If your department doesn't run EMS great, don't get your EMT-B. Even if that is the case you need to be a cretified first responder with CPR and AED.
            When people have a bad day we are called, the days of a fire crew standing by the patient pointing and waiting for the medics is over. If you get called for EMS then you need to be trained.
            I don't care if you only go because the department makes you, if when that ticket comes over it is for a first responder or ambulance assist then you need to be an EMT.

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            • #21
              it all comes down to one thing, does your fire department respond to all medical calls in your area? im mean lik do you have a crew on an engine who will roll to a medical call like many areas do? if so, you may want those firefighters to be trained in at least first responder. the city department here requires all firefighters to become an EMT withen the first year of being hired. the department i am on does not require firefighters to be ems trained. however, we do have members who are first responders, EMT-B, and Paramedic certified. our department is dispatched to medical calls, but only those who are medically trained are allowed to respond(we are a vollie department so ems crews respond from their home). at the same time, a rescue unit and ALS ambulance is dispatched to the call from the city. since our ems crew gets on scene way before they do and can provide care to the patient.
              so to make a long story short, i personally think that if your department has the resources than yes, they should be at least EMT-B.
              2009 Warren County Firefighter of the Year

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              • #22
                Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                No. CPR yes, licensed or certified EMT's-not if you job doesn't require it. The upkeep of skills and continueing education is just more time away from something else fire related. We are fast becoming Jack's of All trades, Master's of None. With all the talk of Back to Basics it should be obvious that we do not need any more mandates for things we are not doing! How about mandatory certification in ventilation, search, reading smoke and hoseline advances?
                as everyones said look at your needs but require an EMT not really but a first or medical responders why not I know a department that is holding a class now that will last less than a couple months no clinicals and you should be able to host it at your department and should anyone want to continue on and knew they could do it around NC anyway they offer a bridge class.
                I believe it would take them longer to get a FF1&2 certification.

                just my thoughts though

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                • #23
                  As what usually happens, the EMS in the fire department debate usually talks only about medical calls and very little about actual firefighting. I’ve met a few advanced medically trained firefighters that were ok, however as I said earlier many couldn’t fight fire through a wet paper bag. Most of these were jakes who later took advanced medical training and not the other way around.

                  The notion that firefighters at MVA’s stand around with a glazed look on their faces is ridiculous. On many MVA’s that I’ve been on, it’s been the opposite. Many times it’s EMS that twists the green patients out of the car without proper access.

                  All of our firefighters are trained in standard first aid and CPR/AED. We perform spinal/neck immobilization on everyone. We keep everyone warm and monitor their vitals. We treat the bleeding and try to keep patients calm until the bus gets there. Once the bus gets there, we keep the area secured, let them do their job, and help out any way we can.

                  Our new firefighters need to be trained in and practice fire scene survival skills, and that’s a full time job. Things like reading smoke, proper ventilation, fire behavior, building collapse, proper pumping operations, and the lost art of nozzlemanship takes lots of training and experience. These things just can’t be picked up in a thirty something hour course. Attention to detail is going to keep you and your crew as safe as possible. Interior firefighting is all about experience, pattern recognition and gut instinct. The crusty old jakes are going to teach you pattern recognition, and the things you need to know to survive.

                  This watering down of the fire service has to end. When I took my NFPA pump course it was three books with around 700 pages to absorb. Now it’s more like 150 pages. Sadly some wet behind the ears bus driver is going to think that they’re a pump operator.

                  I’m getting really tired of phenomenal firefighters getting forced out the door by slap happy EMS punks. Pretty soon we’ll have the blind leading the blind and sadly in a few years nobody will know the difference. Fire engines will be something you look at in a museum, and ambulances will have 1500 gpm pumps.

                  Stay Safe

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by firefighter1962 View Post
                    As what usually happens, the EMS in the fire department debate usually talks only about medical calls and very little about actual firefighting. I’ve met a few advanced medically trained firefighters that were ok, however as I said earlier many couldn’t fight fire through a wet paper bag. Most of these were jakes who later took advanced medical training and not the other way around.

                    The notion that firefighters at MVA’s stand around with a glazed look on their faces is ridiculous. On many MVA’s that I’ve been on, it’s been the opposite. Many times it’s EMS that twists the green patients out of the car without proper access.

                    All of our firefighters are trained in standard first aid and CPR/AED. We perform spinal/neck immobilization on everyone. We keep everyone warm and monitor their vitals. We treat the bleeding and try to keep patients calm until the bus gets there. Once the bus gets there, we keep the area secured, let them do their job, and help out any way we can.

                    Our new firefighters need to be trained in and practice fire scene survival skills, and that’s a full time job. Things like reading smoke, proper ventilation, fire behavior, building collapse, proper pumping operations, and the lost art of nozzlemanship takes lots of training and experience. These things just can’t be picked up in a thirty something hour course. Attention to detail is going to keep you and your crew as safe as possible. Interior firefighting is all about experience, pattern recognition and gut instinct. The crusty old jakes are going to teach you pattern recognition, and the things you need to know to survive.

                    This watering down of the fire service has to end. When I took my NFPA pump course it was three books with around 700 pages to absorb. Now it’s more like 150 pages. Sadly some wet behind the ears bus driver is going to think that they’re a pump operator.

                    I’m getting really tired of phenomenal firefighters getting forced out the door by slap happy EMS punks. Pretty soon we’ll have the blind leading the blind and sadly in a few years nobody will know the difference. Fire engines will be something you look at in a museum, and ambulances will have 1500 gpm pumps.

                    Stay Safe
                    You have some excellent points brother.

                    Imagine if the Bricklayers thought that stucco was popular and something they should be doing in lieu of just brickwork and rather than doing just Brickwork they began doing Stucco about 1/2 the time. (not forgetting to mention the intrusion into other locals jurisdictions) In a few years how good would the skills of the Bricklayers be at doing what they formerly focused on all the time. Would the apprinticeces be learning all that the men before them had learned about their jobs as bricklayers? Would their skills and knowledge be eroding exponentially, with every generation that passes?

                    The skills and the trade of firemen is slowly slipping away due to selfishness and shortsightedness of a few. And that is unfortuneate that too few want to do anything about it.

                    FTM-PTB

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      A quote from my Paramedic Instructor that seems to fit this topic:

                      "We no longer have fire departments. Sure they are called that, but in reality they are EMS departments that happen to catch the occasional fire."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DFW333 View Post
                        A quote from my Paramedic Instructor that seems to fit this topic:

                        "We no longer have fire departments. Sure they are called that, but in reality they are EMS departments that happen to catch the occasional fire."
                        Four structure fires in my last 5 shifts. Yeah you're right, we don't do fires anymore..... You are probably a great fireman with that attitude. Maybe you are a better fit on an ambo, not me. I don't like ems and I dropped my emt, so I am going to go watch TV from my bed and wait for a fire now.
                        I am a complacent liability to the fire service

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by FDAIC485 View Post
                          If you show me a firefighter that does not want to provide EMS in some form or fashion, I'll show you a person you will find in front of the TV or in bed sleeping at the earliest possible moment.
                          That's one of the dumbest lines I have ever read here.
                          I am a complacent liability to the fire service

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I work for a department that requires all its personnel to be...medic's.

                            FF/Medic's are getting scarce because of all the departments that require both FF/Medic.

                            A box with a EMT and a Medic will do just fine. I'm a huge fan of ALS engines because of all the times the engine beats the ambo on scene and has to wait for one to arrive, sometimes 15-20 minutes.

                            That medic on scene can, in a lot of calls, provide the capability to treat and not require a transport.

                            But, not everyone does it that way. And does that make it wrong? No one is right or wrong.

                            I would glady sit back and just drive the engine or fight fire. But... according to the Texas Department of Health, I have to maintain a minimum level of training to be registered as a FF. ECA is the bare minimum, of which all you can do is basic CPR.... but i've never heard of a place offering that level. The lowest level i've seen is EMT-B.
                            The Box. You opened it. We Came...

                            "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Fire engines will be something you look at in a museum, and ambulances will have 1500 gpm pumps


                              I read somewhere of an ambo that had a fire pump in it... like 150-250 gpm. Maybe it was my short driver operator book.
                              The Box. You opened it. We Came...

                              "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ChicagoFF View Post
                                That's one of the dumbest lines I have ever read here.
                                I guess you don't break away from the TV much at the firehouse than do you?
                                I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

                                -J. Cantrell

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