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Should All FF's be EMT's or above

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  • Originally posted by DocVBFDE14 View Post
    It really isn't hard to figure out. The only FD I know of that uses the title Sgt is Washington DC. ANd I know they have a less than positve view of providing EMS..so that ruled that out
    I wasn't implying that I'm trying to hide my position as a LEO, but the fact that once they figured it out (which should have been pretty easy), the aSSumptions start flying.

    Comment


    • Like I said, the tail is wagging the Puppy.

      Originally posted by Dave1983 View Post
      Pretty much sums it up for me.

      I keep hearing that EMS is bad for the fire serive as it will somehow have a negative effect on staffing and pay. Like I said before, thanks to EMS, we have more staff, more companies and better pay. I recall in another thread that FDNY starts firefigters at something like $25K. We start at $38K, and the cost of living is a lot lower here then in NYC (or so Ive been told). Sooo, fire based EMS is a bad thing? Not in my part of the world.
      Well, I guess if that sums it up in your opinion. That's it. It's your world, the rest of us are just visiting. But seriously, a Fireman in Chicago is making way more than you are guessing. Don't want to speak for New York,.. But you have to get around more.

      Hey, just checked, as of Jan.2004 it was $40,416 to start. $49,254 after a year and $52,062 after 18 months. An old guy like me makes $72,354. only in my rank it's more. Now put a Nitro under your tongue, and if you get a headache.....
      Last edited by Rockie; 02-25-2007, 06:29 PM.

      Comment


      • Wow..........

        Originally posted by Rockie View Post
        Hey, just checked, as of Jan.2004 it was $40,416 to start. $49,254 after a year and $52,062 after 18 months. An old guy like me makes $72,354. only in my rank it's more. Now put a Nitro under your tongue, and if you get a headache.....
        Damn, That ain't bad....... Almost as much as my retirement......
        Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
        In memory of
        Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
        Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

        IACOJ Budget Analyst

        I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

        www.gdvfd18.com

        Comment


        • I tried.. But you played. Can you top this..

          Originally posted by hwoods View Post
          Damn, That ain't bad....... Almost as much as my retirement......
          Ok, you win Woods. You beat my retirement check. We get 75% of salary if we live to retire. Just remember I would have easily been the Chief on your Department.
          JUST A JOKE. Have a good one...

          Comment


          • FFred ..

            Fact: Fires are down nationwide. Most fire departments are seeing decreases, some significant. These are not numbers compared to the 70's but numbers pulled from the last 5-10 years. NYC may be the exception. Fires are likely to continue to decrease.

            Fact: The fire service has adopted EMS. Like it or not. Most fire departments, including some very large ones operate EMS quite effectivly. Many small fire departments would not have any career staff without EMS because there simply are not enough fire-related emergencies to justify paid staff w/out it. This has nothing to do with us "enchroacing" into another career filed. This is a logical and likley extension of the fire service.

            Fact: The paramedics who work for our parish EMS service start out a higher base salery than any fully paid or combo fire department's firefighters in this part of the state. Arcadian Ambulance, which provides 911 transport to many communties in the middle and southern part of the state start's out it's paramedics out higher than most FDs line firefighters. The ambulance company who I work for starts out thier paramedics competeive with any local FD. Lower paid career field? Our parish paramedics make more than just about any fireman in the parish after 10-15 years. To me that doesn't sound like a lower paid career field.

            I'm sorry if you have an issue with EMS. For most department's it has provided much in the way of resources. I have siad before that I'm not crazy about it, EMS has given my FD resources that we never would have had without it. We are simply not busy enough to have gotten where we are today simply running fire. It will not destroy the fire service. It may require reallocation of resources in some places from fire supression to EMS, but in most places that's fine as fires are down, and still decreasing. Maybe it's time you think about another line of work since the fire service is, apprently in your mind, going to hell in a handbasket with EMS and minority recruitement and ABruno types using sound business practices to manage us taking over our ranks like ants at a picnic.
            Last edited by LaFireEducator; 02-25-2007, 10:14 PM.
            Train to fight the fires you fight.

            Comment


            • Newb

              sorry to butt into the conversation.

              I am a Vol. FF in Missouri and i am currently going to school as an emt, then im going to school to get my paramedic lic after that.

              My goal in life is to get on paid as a San Jose FF in California. They request all new recruits to have Medic Lic's, FF1-2 and its good to have a degree in firescience.

              well, maybe they are requiring it because the fire service is so competitive, so they are just picking the highest trained people over some one right off the street with only FF1-2. Dam thats 100K a year job, some one with a 4 year degree has trouble making that much. so why not make new recruits have as much training as they can?

              Comment


              • Yup!!........

                Originally posted by Rockie View Post
                Ok, you win Woods. You beat my retirement check. We get 75% of salary if we live to retire. Just remember I would have easily been the Chief on your Department.
                JUST A JOKE. Have a good one...
                And so taken. If we can't laugh at ourselves we'll go crazy anyway.
                Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
                In memory of
                Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
                Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

                IACOJ Budget Analyst

                I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

                www.gdvfd18.com

                Comment


                • Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                  FFred ..
                  Fact: Fires are down nationwide. Most fire departments are seeing decreases, some significant. These are not numbers compared to the 70's but numbers pulled from the last 5-10 years. NYC may be the exception. Fires are likely to continue to decrease.
                  But why are they down in the last 5-10 years? Is that part of a larger trend that is still winding down from the 1970s. How does this still compare to the spike that occurred in the late 60s to 70s? You are attempting the same half-azzed statistical analysis that city managements routinely practice. If a company was specifically formed for fire duty levels that increased 5-10 years ago, you would have a very valid point however most companies and depts. have been around much longer than that. Crime is down in many cities and you don't see law enforcement working to take on unrelated job tasks. You must still correlate the decrease in fires with a decrease in fire protection. Just because of a fluctuation in the number of fires doesn't necessarily translate into a need to close companies or take on additional duties any more than an increase in the fires justifies opening new companies and limiting the number of additional duties(EMS).

                  Fact: The fire service has adopted EMS. Like it or not. Most fire departments, including some very large ones operate EMS quite effectively. Many small fire departments would not have any career staff without EMS because there simply are not enough fire-related emergencies to justify paid staff w/out it. This has nothing to do with us "encroaching" into another career filed. This is a logical and likely extension of the fire service.
                  The question was raised on this thread...should all firemen be EMTs...I stated an emphatic NO and gave supporting reasons. To be fair I am not speaking of Mayberry RFD and the 6 total firemen they have...I am speaking of average sized municipal Fire departments and union(recognized or not) members that work there...some of which have gone down the road of taking over EMS, some have just, like us have EMS as a completely separate division. There is a large difference and many still refuse to address the fact that EMS is often used as a stepping stone to the "suppression" side as you refer to it. It deserves to be its own agency and own dept with its own career path. But cities don't want to buck up and a few lazy small town firemen sold themselves short and got this ball rolling by taking on this unrelated career field for chump change. When firemen get paid only a fraction of what a city would hire a dedicated EMT for...one must really ask...who is benefiting most from this arrangement?

                  Because many fell victims to the propaganda pushed by management that our jobs were useless and we needed to justify our existence outside of the duties we were already performing, doesn't mean that it is in the best interests of Unions or Fire Dept to integrate further or take on additional duties.

                  As for a logical extension...it is far from it. I've brought some very valid issues to light in regards to the skill set and personalities that gravitate towards each job and how a Blue-collar, hands-on, laborious, dirty and dangerous job doesn't necessarily translate to a low-skill, low-pay, relatively safe health care field. EMS is no more related to the fire department than being an Air-Traffic controller or an RN.

                  Fact: The paramedics who work for our parish EMS service start out a higher base salary than any fully paid or combo fire department's firefighters in this part of the state. Arcadian Ambulance, which provides 911 transport to many communities in the middle and southern part of the state start's out it's paramedics out higher than most FDs line firefighters. The ambulance company who I work for starts out their paramedics competitive with any local FD. Lower paid career field? Our parish paramedics make more than just about any fireman in the parish after 10-15 years. To me that doesn't sound like a lower paid career field.
                  You just aren't paying attention. Look at the U.S. Department of Labor or any career guide and tell us again which career commands what type of pay again? I suppose the Labor Dept is only making up those median salaries? Just because some lazy fire departments decided that they would take on the work of other professions for pennies on the dollar doesn't mean paramedics or EMTs make as much as firemen in the rest of the country. Separate the two and one will find a wide disparity in pay and benefits and one that doesn't favor EMS folks either.

                  Take any FD EMS personnel or private hospital ambulance EMT or Medic and see if they have the same pay, benefits, influence and bargaining power as any local FD union members. Perhaps in that 3rd world State of yours where firemen are openly denied their rightful pay despite court orders (NOFD vs. Ray "Chocolate City" Nagin) Paramedics make more than firemen...but your experience is the exception and not the rule.

                  Fact is a number of cities have come under fire for their EMS participation...this has affected staffing and companies. Hostile city administrations when looking to cut staffing or local Co's always lead their sides argument with how much BS EMS the fire dept is running and what a waste that it is to send firemen on an Engine to an EMS run when an Ambulance is all that is needed. They use the useless comparison of the proportion of EMS to Fire runs as if that justifies anything.

                  I'm sorry if you have an issue with EMS. For most department's it has provided much in the way of resources. I have said before that I'm not crazy about it, EMS has given my FD resources that we never would have had without it. We are simply not busy enough to have gotten where we are today simply running fire. It will not destroy the fire service. It may require reallocation of resources in some places from fire suppression to EMS, but in most places that's fine as fires are down, and still decreasing. Maybe it's time you think about another line of work since the fire service is, apparently in your mind, going to hell in a hand basket with EMS and minority recruitment and ABruno types using sound business practices to manage us taking over our ranks like ants at a picnic.
                  Yes I need to look for another line of work because of my dedication and concern for my family, brothers and Dept. Yet another quitter’s attitude from some clown who wants nothing to do with firefighting.

                  You are ignoring what has happened and what will happen if the emphasis on EMS is continued unabated. Just because my company today goes to lets say 100 fires and 15 years ago we went to 190 fires...that doesn't justify closing us down or requiring us to take on any additional non-related work duties. 40 years ago or even 50 years ago we might have gone to 50 fires...in most departments their fires and emergencies are at a level that one would expect provided the spike in the 1970s never occurred. That is excluding EMS runs.

                  As for Minorities...what the hell are you referring too?

                  As for Abruno we've already been down this road and he is a first class salesman...I'll give that to him. I will not revisit what a clown he is and what men around here think of him...and even some of his contemporaries.


                  I care enough to see that my job isn't railroaded with the same nonsense BS that has befallen other depts and I don't desire to undercut the careers of EMTs and Medics who support their families with the salaries and benefits they recieve.

                  FTM-PTB

                  Comment


                  • Fire Fighters fight fires. If you want to be an EMT or Paramedic then join the ambulance service. It's juat another way for City Hall to dump more workload on the FF and cut taxes in the process.

                    Comment


                    • Many are cold, but few are frozen

                      Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
                      You just aren't paying attention. Look at the U.S. Department of Labor or any career guide and tell us again which career commands what type of pay again? I suppose the Labor Dept is only making up those median salaries? Just because some lazy fire departments decided that they would take on the work of other professions for pennies on the dollar doesn't mean paramedics or EMTs make as much as firemen in the rest of the country. Separate the two and one will find a wide disparity in pay and benefits and one that doesn't favor EMS folks either.
                      FTM-PTB
                      Many are called, but few are chosen.

                      Fred, hold your water. You are right, and you're about the most insightful person on this thread. But the people you are preaching to, as you said, are not paying attention. If they did, there goes their whole philosophy. It's like a Presidential candidate getting shot in the ***, 50 percent of the voter still believe he wasn't running away. There is a huge Abyss between Paid and Volunteer, and Big City and Suburban. And guys who've been around and know the score, and new idealistic guys who actually think everything is on the square. I try to keep a joke in my posts, and I don't get much feedback because they probably thing I don't know what I'm talking about. It's just like your kids, when they are older and have seen the whole picture, then you are smart all of a sudden. Fires used to be wood, shingles and Cellotex. Now there are so many toxins in a lousy bungalow fire you have to be a Chemist. Same with the EMS, it started out simple and it has become very complicated. It has no place in the Fire Department, and as I said should be part of the Health Department system in large cities, but it's already entrenched. The public has become dependent. It's like Social Security or Cable TV. They don't know anything else, and won't do anything for themselves. But there is a point to be made as far as Volunteer and Suburban Fire Departments, if they haven't had a Fire in 6 months and some A-hole politician decides he can save money by making a deal with one of these Fly by Night outfits or contract with another Department.. Who is their saving Star.. EMS. God save us all from progress.

                      Comment


                      • Whether the occurence of fires is less or not is a moot point. If you make one fire a year, it doesn't reduce the manpower need. That's a moron's argument and it's up to us to explain to the idiots in government that the number of fire stations is not according to the number of fires, but the need when fires do occur. When was the last time we launched a nuclear ICBM?

                        FACT: Government types (RICH people) think they are more likely to need a police officer than a firefighter. Their houses won't catch fire and if they do, they're insured. The fact that anyone cna put a bullet in an intruder but most cannot suppress a sizeable fire is lost on them.
                        Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rockie View Post
                          Many are called, but few are chosen.

                          Fred, hold your water. You are right, and you're about the most insightful person on this thread. But the people you are preaching to, as you said, are not paying attention. If they did, there goes their whole philosophy. It's like a Presidential candidate getting shot in the ***, 50 percent of the voter still believe he wasn't running away. There is a huge Abyss between Paid and Volunteer, and Big City and Suburban. And guys who've been around and know the score, and new idealistic guys who actually think everything is on the square. I try to keep a joke in my posts, and I don't get much feedback because they probably thing I don't know what I'm talking about. It's just like your kids, when they are older and have seen the whole picture, then you are smart all of a sudden. Fires used to be wood, shingles and Cellotex. Now there are so many toxins in a lousy bungalow fire you have to be a Chemist. Same with the EMS, it started out simple and it has become very complicated. It has no place in the Fire Department, and as I said should be part of the Health Department system in large cities, but it's already entrenched. The public has become dependent. It's like Social Security or Cable TV. They don't know anything else, and won't do anything for themselves. But there is a point to be made as far as Volunteer and Suburban Fire Departments, if they haven't had a Fire in 6 months and some A-hole politician decides he can save money by making a deal with one of these Fly by Night outfits or contract with another Department.. Who is their saving Star.. EMS. God save us all from progress.
                          There are only two things on the level in this world...this job...and proffesional wrestling...all the rest is Bull [email protected]*%!

                          FTM-PTB

                          Comment


                          • Rockie, do you feel the same way about the paramedics who walked with you as a member of the BOB ?
                            IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

                            Comment


                            • No I don't..but

                              Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
                              Rockie, do you feel the same way about the paramedics who walked with you as a member of the BOB ?
                              Mike don't you read my previous columns ## Er..uh.. wait that was Royco, well previous ramblings then.

                              "Then in 1980 we went on STRIKE against the WICKED WITCH
                              (Mayor Jayne Byrne) and they stood beside us. Hey, they're not so bad. Guess there's room for both of us. We got our first CONTRACT."

                              "Fires used to be wood, shingles and Cellotex. Now there are so many toxins in a lousy bungalow fire you have to be a Chemist. Same with the EMS, it started out simple and it has become very complicated."

                              That Strike was 27 years ago. It was an altogether different time. We did push for them to run out of the Health Department and get out of Firehouses at first, and we had a mutiny when they tried to buy into our pension. After they walked out with us, we eased up and also voted to let them into our pension. The Ambulance crew we had on 79th St. was very busy, but they never got burn-out because when things got too hectic they just got a 6 Pack and a Pizza and drove out of District and parked overlooking Lake Michigan to relax and ignore the Radio. Like I said, it was a much lighter time.
                              Last edited by Rockie; 02-27-2007, 01:08 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Rockie sorry for missing the post. I would like to point out that in some places such as Joliet, there is a nice pay bump if you ride an ambulance and an even bigger one if you are an ambulance driver. The bonus is that you still get to fight fires, albeit you pull up on the meat wagon instead of an engine or truck.
                                IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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