NFPA - Nitwits or Gods gift to firefighting?

[ChicagoFF]

So, what do you think about this group and their works?

[JTFIRE80]

How about a middle of the road? They have some excellent points, and some not so good ones.

[ChicagoFF]

How about a middle of the road? They have some excellent points, and some not so good ones.

The hottest spot in hell is reserved for those who refuse to take a side!

[Jasper 45]

I vote 'nitwits'.


These firefighting 'gods', and their standards, were used to cut my job down.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Have buildings with fire alarm systems? NFPA 72

Have buildings with sprinkler systems? NFPA 13

Firefighter health and safety? NFPA 1500

Staffing recommendations: NFPA 1710 and 1720.

Fire doors, flame reisitant materials, etc? NFPA life safety code.

Most of the grunts on the line don't know what NFPA does. As you advance through the ranks, you learn more about what they do.

We post here and bitch about them, but we can also have a voice in what goes on.. one would spend a little time voicing one's concerns instead of whining here, things could be better... or worse....

[randsc]

Given those choices...

...nitwits.

But in fact, they aren't nitwits at all. They are very good at what they do, which is shill for equipment manufacturers.

I'll start taking them seriously when they stop taking money from industry and stop seating industry reps on panels.

And yes, I know everything has a cost, and they need to keep the lights on. And yes, I know that "standards" written by interested parties are the dirty little secret of most statehouses. But they take it too far.

Is it good to have standards? Of course. But are we seeing an ongoing firefighter bloodbath in the non-NFPA states? Nope.

[Bones42]

The hottest spot in hell is reserved for those who refuse to take a side!

Guess I'm in hell. (and my NFPA gear is keeping me safe)

They have some good, some bad, some crazy, some ok.

[FFFRED]

We post here and bitch about them, but we can also have a voice in what goes on.. one would spend a little time voicing one's concerns instead of whining here, things could be better... or worse....

You have to pay for your own admission. You can join for $$$ and have a voice or not...but either way it will have an effect on you regardless if you participate it or not.

Sounds like extortion to me.

Besides if the majority of the nations firemen got involved and voted on this...the manufactures and politcians would stop subscribing and create a new "authority" for fire codes.

Don't think so?...just look how upset they got when 1710 didn't go their way. Now just imagine every policy not going their way...would they still pay for their membership? I seriously doubt it.

NFPA at one time did a great service for firemen everywhere....today they have morphed into a great self-promoting self perpetuating "nonprofit" that develops new products for market and to sell to everyone and keep them in business. (and the manufactures who also stay in business because of these clowns.)

Make the manufacts. advisory only and I'll reconsider my position.

They are of little to no use for me.

FTM-PTB

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

You simply cannot generalize about this.

The "NFPA" really doesn't do anything about codes and standards except to coordinate the process. All committee members are independent members of the fire protection community. They are unpaid (by the NFPA). The committee structure is as balanced as possible to avoid "stacking". Although membership in the NFPA costs, so does your membership in your union, your fraternal organization, your condo association, your swim club, your Little League, etc.

The NFPA does other things besides codes and standards. They publish books and training materials. Just like Fire Engineering, Firehouse, Delmar, Brady, etc. They conduct research-research that benefits all fire fighters-whether they are members or not. They conduct investigations of major fire incident. And unlike NIOSH and other public agency investigations, they very often name names and do not hold back on the details. These investigations benefit all of us.

The falacy (sic) is that you have to be a member to participate in the code development process. You absolutely do not. Any person can submit proposals and comments. Every proposal and every comment is read and acted upon by the Technical Committee. I would take Fred's statement one step further, that is, is every FF in this country participated in the process, they would get the codes and standards that they want. But they don't.

Several things already posted here boggle the mind. The NFPA does not pretend to be a charity or philanthropic organization. Why are they the devil reincarnate because they spend money to develop books, videos and other training materials and then sell those materials at a profit? I cannot understand this logic.

The other one is why should manufacturers have any less representation than any other aspect of the fire protection community? They are the ones who are investing in the development of the gear. They have as much at stake as anyone. Why should a fire fighter be disqualified from membership on a Technical Committee simply because they are from a FD that doesn't do as many runs or fires as the larger FD's? They have alot at stake as well. The NFPA tries to balance the committees. I cannot believe that you will find a Technical Committee that is stacked.

The NFPA is not a perfect organization. But, then again, neither is your FD. But many of the posts here exhibit a tremendous ignorance of their history, their mission and the manner in which the codes and standards are developed.

Let me ask some questions of those who are complaining...what have you done to change things? Have you submitted comments and proposals? Have you sought membership on a Technical Committee? Have you voted? It seems to me that if you decide to remain outside the process, you forfeit your right to complain about it.

[randsc]

The NFPA does other things besides codes and standards. They publish books and training materials. Just like Fire Engineering, Firehouse, Delmar, Brady, etc. They conduct research-research that benefits all fire fighters-whether they are members or not. They conduct investigations of major fire incident. And unlike NIOSH and other public agency investigations, they very often name names and do not hold back on the details. These investigations benefit all of us.

And I don't see any complaining about those things. Try limiting NFPA activities to these, and see how long the manufacturers remain interested and involved.

Several things already posted here boggle the mind. The NFPA does not pretend to be a charity or philanthropic organization. Why are they the devil reincarnate because they spend money to develop books, videos and other training materials and then sell those materials at a profit? I cannot understand this logic.

I don't see any posts where anyone complains about NFPA selling materials that they develop for profit. I see posts that complain about an organization whose standards directly benefit manufacturers taking as much money and input from manufacturers.

The other one is why should manufacturers have any less representation than any other aspect of the fire protection community? They are the ones who are investing in the development of the gear. They have as much at stake as anyone. Why should a fire fighter be disqualified from membership on a Technical Committee simply because they are from a FD that doesn't do as many runs or fires as the larger FD's? They have alot at stake as well. The NFPA tries to balance the committees. I cannot believe that you will find a Technical Committee that is stacked.

There are other ways to go about this. And other standards-writing organizations manage. For example, the Uniform Commercial Code is promulgated by an organization called the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws. Would you care to guess how much funding the NCCUSL (a not-for-profit, not a government agency) receives from commercial entities? I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with "done".

Let me ask some questions of those who are complaining...what have you done to change things? Have you submitted comments and proposals? Have you sought membership on a Technical Committee? Have you voted? It seems to me that if you decide to remain outside the process, you forfeit your right to complain about it.

So we ID an organization that seems by its very nature to represent a huge conflict of interest, and your response is that we should join that organization and seek to change it over time? I don't think so. How about we simply limit the organization's role in standards-writing until such time as its organizational integrity is not in doubt?

I won't believe that Ford and Chevy have my best interests at heart when they tell me how often to replace my car, or what features and options it should have. And I won't believe the NFPA has my best interests at heart while the huge confict of interest inherent in the organization's current set-up remains unresolved.

[FFFRED]

You simply cannot generalize about this.

The "NFPA" really doesn't do anything about codes and standards except to coordinate the process. All committee members are independent members of the fire protection community. They are unpaid (by the NFPA). The committee structure is as balanced as possible to avoid "stacking". Although membership in the NFPA costs, so does your membership in your union, your fraternal organization, your condo association, your swim club, your Little League, etc.

But most of those organizations you offered above are voluntary memberships, You choose to move into a certain condo, join a swim club...etc. In many states as well...union membership is also considered voluntary.

You don't think that the fact that committee members are unpaid, might stack the committees in favor of those places that can afford to send members. Or members who can self fund themselves? What could be their motivation.

The NFPA does other things besides codes and standards. They publish books and training materials. Just like Fire Engineering, Firehouse, Delmar, Brady, etc. They conduct research-research that benefits all fire fighters-whether they are members or not. They conduct investigations of major fire incident. And unlike NIOSH and other public agency investigations, they very often name names and do not hold back on the details. These investigations benefit all of us.

The falacy (sic) is that you have to be a member to participate in the code development process. You absolutely do not. Any person can submit proposals and comments. Every proposal and every comment is read and acted upon by the Technical Committee. I would take Fred's statement one step further, that is, is every FF in this country participated in the process, they would get the codes and standards that they want. But they don't.

To be a full fleged member of a democracy one must be able to vote. To really say one participates in an orgainization and the process it is critical that that person also have a proportional final say in the process and that is to vote. To think that we should pay to be allowed to have an voice on the standards that we will be affected by is unacceptable. Would 1710 have passed without 1000s of firemen getting memberships and voting? Right there is your answer.

Several things already posted here boggle the mind. The NFPA does not pretend to be a charity or philanthropic organization. Why are they the devil reincarnate because they spend money to develop books, videos and other training materials and then sell those materials at a profit? I cannot understand this logic.

You are right...one must really question what their true overreaching concern is? Is it safety or is it creating new revenue streams? What their motivation is and what drives that organization should be a concern to all of us. Once again it creates the appearance if nothing else of impropriety and questionable motives.

The other one is why should manufacturers have any less representation than any other aspect of the fire protection community? They are the ones who are investing in the development of the gear. They have as much at stake as anyone. Why should a fire fighter be disqualified from membership on a Technical Committee simply because they are from a FD that doesn't do as many runs or fires as the larger FD's? They have alot at stake as well. The NFPA tries to balance the committees. I cannot believe that you will find a Technical Committee that is stacked.

They are NOT part of the Fire Service! What would happen if a local government allowed a local dealer or manufacturer to sit on their bid committee, conflict of interest, fraud and rigged bid processes no?

Is Boeing part of the Military because they sell products to the US Air Force?

They are all trying to sell products and make money off of the fire service...they should have an advisory role period.

The NFPA is not a perfect organization. But, then again, neither is your FD. But many of the posts here exhibit a tremendous ignorance of their history, their mission and the manner in which the codes and standards are developed.

Let me ask some questions of those who are complaining...what have you done to change things? Have you submitted comments and proposals? Have you sought membership on a Technical Committee? Have you voted? It seems to me that if you decide to remain outside the process, you forfeit your right to complain about it.[/QUOTE]

To bad I can't afford it. Too busy trying to make a living.

FTM-PTB

[CdnFD24]

I would like to vote my opinion, but those two poll options are a joke.

I'm in favor of NFPA, but they don't run my department.

I learned about NFPA the same time I learned about level 1. You can't learn level 1 firefighting in my area without knowing NFPA. They go hand in hand, as it should be.

Neil

[MalahatTwo7]

I am in agreement with CR and George on most things here. NFPA is like any other organization, there are good parts and not so good parts about it.

Unions and NFPA started out the same way: there was a need for a standard, and they were created to fill that need. Both have morphed into things that some would say is for the betterment of all, some would say it is for the betterment of Self - meaning the individual organization itself. Either way, a person may either like the provided service or not like the service. In the case of not liking it, what are you or have you done to:

1) voice your concerns; or
2) present your ideas in a constructive manner for which change might be affected?

RandC, there are more threads and comments in here than most people have fingers and toes to count with regards to NFPA and what it has or has not done for the Fire Service since its inception.

Fred, the last time I looked at least part of the NFPA Committee was made up of either currently serving or past serving members of the fire/safety service.

[ChicagoFF]

I would like to vote my opinion, but those two poll options are a joke.

Then make your own damn poll.

[DeputyMarshal]

Asking "What is your opinion of the NFPA?" and then only offering two extremist answers is pointless.

You might as well ask "What is your opinion of the FDNY?" and offer the same response options. The reply would be just as meaningful (or meaningless).

Is the NFPA perfect? Of course not. Nobody and no organization is. Nonetheless they're responsible for peer standards that affect every single one of us every day. From promulgating the National Electrical Code to sponsoring Fire Prevention Week to developing peer standards for firefighter training the NFPA has done something that benefits you and everyone you know personally. And you and everyone you know personally has the option of contributing to the process.

Don't like something in their standards? Get involved in the process and make your case to change them -- it's an open process. If you have a gripe about an NFPA standard but you've never taken the time to submit comment on it to support your case then you don't have the right to b*tch. It's as simple as that.