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  • #16
    Originally posted by jmitchell View Post
    They might as well have the NFPA set up a division to investigate firefighter fatalities. Since everything is based on their standards anyways, they would have more knowledge than the CDC and NIOSH who was originally set up to investigate farm accidents.

    Also see http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=87507
    If I am not mistaken, the NTSB is made up of a panel of experts from different fields, like metallurgy (spell?), avionics, etc. It would make perfect sense to me that the CDC or NIOSH investigative panel should include a NFPA representitive, maybe an ATF guy, etc. I mean, if this were to be taken seriously, there should be a panel of experts on a team. Just my $.02

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    • #17
      Originally posted by jmitchell View Post
      They might as well have the NFPA set up a division to investigate firefighter fatalities.
      FWIW, the NFPA has looked into ~30 firefighter fatailites over the years and produced very detailed investigative reports.

      The CDC/NIOSH unit would be well served to look at how the NFPA has handled those investigations.
      "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
      sigpic
      The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by 1080iAddict View Post
        I mean, if this were to be taken seriously, there should be a panel of experts on a team
        But that would only make sense which is unheard of in our society
        "In general terms, firefighting isn't always about putting the fire out; its about making sure anything else doesn't catch on fire. What's burned is burned. Once you understand this, your tunnel vision is replaced by effective strategy."

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        • #19
          I guess my first thought about this subject was "Why the H*** is the Center For Disease Control investigating firefighter deaths?" That makes about as much sense as OSHA investigating the bird flu.

          The National Institute of Occupational Safety & Health is one of the Centers for Disease Control.

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          • #20
            In reading the articles about this, it's been said a few times about departments not being willing to cooperate.

            That is sad.
            "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
              FWIW, the NFPA has looked into ~30 firefighter fatailites over the years and produced very detailed investigative reports.

              The CDC/NIOSH unit would be well served to look at how the NFPA has handled those investigations.
              No. You're wrong. Those investigations were only conducted at the behest of the "manufacturers", a secret evil group of characters who sit as somewhat of a "shadow government" at the NFPA. The goal was to exonerate all gear, equipment and apparatus from any fault whatever.
              PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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              • #22
                I was looking at the timeline and some of those facts are wrong. Like Rob Morrison and Derek Martin dying in a restaurant. If my memory serves me correctly they died fighting a fire at the Gravois Refrigeration Company.

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                • #23
                  I was a bit astonished by some of that second article. Why is it they don't have the authority to enter the scene of any firefighter fatality? What does it really matter what the FD or union thinks? Isn't the whole reason for this program to find out what happened and recommend changes so the fire service as a whole can learn from it and prevent someone else from dying?

                  I'm wondering if they shouldn't give the job back to the USFA, give them the authority and require every firefighter fatality to be investigated. Have them put someone on the fireground within hours, instead of weeks. And tell the FDs and locals that don't like it where they can send their complaint and move on with the investigation.

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                  • #24
                    What does it really matter what the FD or union thinks?
                    Because when/if someone screwed up, they don't want it published for the world to see and families/attornies to find out.

                    That would be my guess.
                    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                    • #25
                      I was looking at the timeline and some of those facts are wrong. Like Rob Morrison and Derek Martin dying in a restaurant. If my memory serves me correctly they died fighting a fire at the Gravois Refrigeration Company.

                      You are correct.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                        In reading the articles about this, it's been said a few times about departments not being willing to cooperate.

                        That is sad.

                        I cant say I blame them. When the investigation takes place months later, after a building has been knocked down, after FFs have attempted to move on with their lives, how can they possibly do the investigation justice?

                        They show a blatant disregard for SOPs, (read the NIOSH report on the Rich Sclafani fire. They wanted the 1st due engine and truck to all go to the rear and enter the basement from there, essentially killing anyone still alive on the 1st floor). They didnt take into account the fact that the roofman and OV actually did go to the rear, and reported the conditions they found. (Somehow, the report managed to disregard this fact, and blamed the company officer for not doing a proper sizeup)

                        They manage to put as much fault with the men and department as possible, and as a side note (178 street in the Bronx, for example), at the end, put partial, indirect blame on the jerkoffs who decided to illegally partition the building, which caused the 6 brothers to jump, not lack of training, improper use of PPE, etc, etc.
                        Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by nyckftbl View Post
                          I cant say I blame them. When the investigation takes place months later, after a building has been knocked down, after FFs have attempted to move on with their lives, how can they possibly do the investigation justice?

                          They show a blatant disregard for SOPs, (read the NIOSH report on the Rich Sclafani fire. They wanted the 1st due engine and truck to all go to the rear and enter the basement from there, essentially killing anyone still alive on the 1st floor). They didnt take into account the fact that the roofman and OV actually did go to the rear, and reported the conditions they found. (Somehow, the report managed to disregard this fact, and blamed the company officer for not doing a proper sizeup)

                          They manage to put as much fault with the men and department as possible, and as a side note (178 street in the Bronx, for example), at the end, put partial, indirect blame on the jerkoffs who decided to illegally partition the building, which caused the 6 brothers to jump, not lack of training, improper use of PPE, etc, etc.
                          Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns.

                          FTM-PTB

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
                            Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns.

                            FTM-PTB
                            I'd just like to point out that is was that volley chief who was trying to do the right thing, and was overruled by a doctor.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              FFRED said "Well when you have only one guy with some volly chief time in Upperstrawbottom,USA how do you expect for them to understand operational procedures and assigned duties and responsibilities? You are asking way to much of these clowns."

                              Lets the volley bashing begin!!!

                              Of course FFRED is wrong but we wont let that get in the way now will we??

                              Schmidt was a 17yr veteran with Prince Georges Co. FD. (volley or paid does it really matter?) He held the rank of Capt. He was also a Fire Protection Engineer with 18yrs experience. And apparently he was the only one who was trying to do what was right. Oh and it cost him his job!! How many others would have stood up and taken the hit?? Not many. Most people would have scurried back to their holes and said "Sure boss what ever you want."

                              The problem appears to be a program run by a beraucrat (Castillo)who had virtually no knowledge of the kind of incidents her team was investigating. A team staffed mostly by people who had little no experience in fire fighting. And a boss who either didnt care about her most experienced investigator's opinions or was threatened by his greater amount of knowledge. After reading the articles and CDCs own handbook and other paperwork its apparent that Castillo didnt care about through investigations and just wanted the cases off her desk ASAP without ruffleing any feathers. Too bad that thoes kind of investigation are useless to everybody.

                              Personaly I hope Schmidt was a volley cause at least he had a spine to stand up for what was right. We all should be thanking him. So if you are reading this Eric Schmidt "THANK YOU for standing up for us and doing what you thought was right."
                              I'm here to save your *** not kiss it!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by hfd326 View Post
                                Personaly I hope Schmidt was a volley cause at least he had a spine to stand up for what was right.
                                I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this statement.



                                nyckftbl, I agree in that their reports are inherently flawed. I still find it sad that they would not get cooperation.
                                "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                                Comment

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