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Not everybody learned from Lairdsville.....

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  • Not everybody learned from Lairdsville.....

    From www.firefighterclosecalls.com :

    PLANNING DEATH AT FIREFIGHTER TRAINING: THE ROOKIE ROAST


    Monday, January 29, 2007
    HIGH SPRINGS, FL. A fire raged Sunday at a High Springs home, but this blaze had no ties to tragedy, heartache or even significant danger.

    High Springs firefighters burned the home, located on Northwest First Avenue between 12th and 13th Streets, as a way to train new firefighters.

    The group of 16 firefighters, two of whom were from a Bell fire unit, and the rest from High Springs began training with smoke exercises at the home at 7:30 a.m. and continued well into the afternoon until actually lighting the home and burning the structure.

    High Springs Fire Chief Terry Jewell helped oversee the training, in which new firefighters were paired up with those who had more experience and were put to the test in numerous ways. These rookies had to undergo a "rookie roast" in which they stayed in a room with their partner until they couldn’t take the heat any longer.

    The smoke training, Jewell said, helps get new firefighters acclimated to working in completely dark rooms while wearing their heavy gear.
    We smoke the house up to a black state where you cant see anything, and we do rescue operations with either a live person on air or a child simulator, he said. Its a good tool for us to learn ...where we need to go with them.

    Dwayne King, a firefighter/emergency medical technician of 17 years, said that rescues take time to get used to because a room full of smoke will be completely black and will have a layout that is unfamiliar to the rescuer. To add to the difficulty, a firefighter will be wearing abut 75 pounds of equipment and crawling on the floor to avoid the high temperatures on the ceiling, which can reach 1,100 degrees, King said.

    After smoke training, Jewell said, the firefighters concentrated on simulating a real fire situation in a single room of the home.

    Each firefighter got one or two chances to extinguish the fire in the room, Jewell said. Then, in what is known as a rookie roast, the firefighters were tested to see how long they could safely withstand the heat of an intense blaze.

    We stay in there until the last possible moment to see who buckles. Jewell said. It’s not dangerous, just makes you feel like you want to leave. The idea is, you stay with your partner no matter what and its hot and dark.

    A fire fighter holds a glass of flammable liquid as he prepares to ignite other areas of the home as part of the practice burn Sunday.
    Lt. Bruce Gillingham, who has been a firefighter for 11 years, said that safety is the main issue when preparing for a burn.

    A home that will be burned undergoes safety checks and procedures in about a month-long process that involves constant work by the firefighters themselves.

    During the fire, several people keep count of everyone on scene at all times, to make sure everyone is accounted for.

    Also, at least five backup people will be on a fire scene, checking to make sure that anyone inside is safe.

    Even after the fire is extinguished, he said, firefighters will continue to monitor the home for at least several days to make sure that everything is put out.

    Every aspect of the fire is controlled, he said, but the situation still is a great one for new firefighters to learn from and more experienced firefighters to continue their training.

    Andy Pearce, who has been a firefighter/EMT for three years, said practicing in such situations gives firefighters a better idea of how they will react in an emergency.

    Its a totally different world, he said of learning to work in darkness. You have to use your other senses.
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

  • #2
    Unbelievable-the complete ignorance of standards combined with with an attitude of "who's got a bigger pair" in a so called training fire with brand new fire fighters. They only need to look across their state to see fire training deaths.
    Last edited by KenNFD1219; 01-30-2007, 08:45 PM.
    -------------------
    "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
    -----------------------------------------------
    Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

    Comment


    • #3
      Mutts in the guise of "brotherhood..."
      ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
      Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

      Comment


      • #4
        Some scary words in there:
        Live victim
        Flammable liquid
        Rookie



        They talk the talk, but they sure ain't walking the walk!

        Comment


        • #5
          WTF???

          These rookies had to undergo a "rookie roast" in which they stayed in a room with their partner until they couldn’t take the heat any longer.
          A fire fighter holds a glass of flammable liquid as he prepares to ignite other areas of the home as part of the practice burn Sunday.
          We stay in there until the last possible moment to see who buckles.


          Hey Stan, What say you on this?
          If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

          "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

          "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

          Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

          impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

          IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Malahat, it's ok see:


            Then, in what is known as a rookie roast, the firefighters were tested to see how long they could safely withstand the heat of an intense blaze.
            It’s not dangerous, just makes you feel like you want to leave.
            Lt. Bruce Gillingham, who has been a firefighter for 11 years, said that safety is the main issue when preparing for a burn.

            If you say it enough it makes it so?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
              Malahat, it's ok see:









              If you say it enough it makes it so?
              "There's no place like Home. There's no place like Home. There's no place like Home." Oh.. I'm sorry. Was I supposed to be wearing the ruby slippers or were you? LOL But who gets to wear the tu-tu?
              If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

              "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

              "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

              Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

              impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

              IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

              Comment


              • #8
                25 Years Later

                Note: This was one of the fires that resulted in the NFPA 1403 – Live Fire Training Standard being developed.


                1982, Bill Duran and Scott Smith died when an explosion ripped through an abandoned garage where the exercise was being held.

                "Sometimes, you know, it comes and goes," said Dan Cutler, a survivor of the explosion. "The building blew up in flames, floor to ceiling."

                The force of the explosion sent Cutler through the wall leaving burns over 60 percent of his body. Even injured, Cutler said he still tried to go back in to find his colleagues.


                http://cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_024180931.html
                Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
                "Everybody Goes Home"

                IACOJ 2003

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
                  If you say it enough it makes it so?
                  That, plus they have never killed a trainee before, so it must be safe.
                  -------------------
                  "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
                  -----------------------------------------------
                  Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mtnfireguy View Post
                    Note: This was one of the fires that resulted in the NFPA 1403 – Live Fire Training Standard being developed.


                    1982, Bill Duran and Scott Smith died when an explosion ripped through an abandoned garage where the exercise was being held.

                    "Sometimes, you know, it comes and goes," said Dan Cutler, a survivor of the explosion. "The building blew up in flames, floor to ceiling."

                    The force of the explosion sent Cutler through the wall leaving burns over 60 percent of his body. Even injured, Cutler said he still tried to go back in to find his colleagues.


                    http://cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_024180931.html
                    I've been trying to post that story for days (unable to start a new post for some reason )... our fire training center (county regional) was built as a direct result of that incident. The tower is dedicated in their memory.

                    Here is the story from the local paper (if it will let me post it).

                    n the line of fire: In 1982, Boulder was site of nation's worst training accident

                    By Christine Reid (Contact)
                    Saturday, January 27, 2007
                    Photo Gallery
                    25th anniversary of Boulder's deadly fire training exercise

                    25th anniversary of Boulder's worst firefighter training accident, which killed firefighters William J. Duran and Scott L. Smith and injured two others, spurred changes in fire training across the nation. One survivor and family members of the fallen visit the site of the accident.

                    Firefighter Dan Cutler, center, Nita Razo, right, and Whitey Smith return to the site of a fire-training accident 25 years ago in Boulder, which left Cutler with severe burns and killed Razo's brother and Smith's son.

                    Enlarge photos | View thumbnails

                    Dan Cutler looks at the cold, snowpacked ground, remembering.

                    It has been 25 years since he survived the nation's deadliest firefighting-training exercise at this nondescript spot in the middle of Boulder.

                    That was before the condominiums and houses, when there was just a small garage that once housed chickens. Cutler clutches arms with the father and sister of firefighters who died in the botched exercise.

                    "This is a place I really don't want to be," he says. "I don't feel anything here."

                    A service commemorating Boulder Fire Rescue Engineer William J. Duran, 30, and firefighter Scott L. Smith, 21, is planned for today.

                    But for their families, and Cutler, every day since the Jan. 26, 1982, accident has served as a day to remember.

                    A dad, a pro

                    Bill Duran would canvass his family members' homes during get-togethers and point out where there were too many plugs in an outlet or other fire hazards. It was a big job — he had six siblings.

                    It was clear to his family that he loved his job, and he prepared them for the worst it could bring.

                    "We'd always be at family gatherings and he'd say, 'If something happens to me, don't blame the fire department,'" his sister, Nita Razo, said. She said the family would joke about it or try to change the subject because nobody wanted to dwell on it, but he would go on.

                    "I chose this profession, and I love it. I know what the risks are," she recalled him saying. "If something happens, don't be angry. Be happy.

                    "I don't think he had some premonition; he just wanted us to know this was his choice — serving the community, serving his fellow man. It was so important to him."

                    He grew up in Louisville and went into the Air Force at 19. He worked as a firefighter at the Strategic Air Command at Dyess Air Force Base in Texas. Four years later, he returned home and joined Boulder's department.

                    Duran was quick to get the title of engineer, which put him in the driver's seat of Engine 11 — his favorite yellow truck.

                    His first son and namesake, who was 12 when the accident occurred, recalled a dad who was involved in his three children's lives — from working the chains at football games to yelling until he was hoarse at wrestling matches. When his daughter Dedra was born in 1979, dad was "wrapped around her fingers," Bill Jr. wrote in a tribute.

                    "The best part was that my father taught us to give of yourself and ask nothing in return, for your work and help was reward enough," he wrote.
                    Memorial service

                    Members of Boulder Fire Rescue will gather with the families of William J. Duran and Scott L. Smith at a ceremony at 10 a.m. today at Boulder Fire Station 3, 1585 30th St., to commemorate the 25th anniversary of their deaths. The public is welcome, and parking is available at Scott Carpenter Park.

                    Returning to the spot this week where the accident took place so long ago makes Nita Razo numb.

                    "There is a great sense of sadness, and the only really warm feeling I have right now is this guy right here," she says, clutching Cutler's arm tighter.

                    "We just wish him peace."

                    A driven rookie

                    Scott Smith had a tough life, said his oldest brother, Phil Smith. Born with a hare lip and a cleft palate, by age 10 he had undergone three major operations.

                    He aspired to become a travel agent. After graduating in Niwot High School's first class and then agent school, he was promised job after job that never panned out.

                    Smith asked a girl to marry him and bought a trailer so they could start a life together. But she broke his heart before the wedding.

                    Phil Smith, who was living out of the state, visited shortly after that and anticipated a gloomy stay with his brother. But Scott was as optimistic as ever. Phil said his brother actually cheered him up during the visit.

                    "He wouldn't let life beat him down," Phil Smith said. "I just think he's a guy who overcame everything life threw at him."

                    Some good finally came Smith's way in 1981 when a neighbor suggested he try out for the Boulder fire department, and he was thrilled when he landed the job.

                    He was dating a nice woman, and things were looking up, Phil Smith said.

                    "He was well on his way to having a great life."

                    And then the job he had for a brief 31/2 months took his life.

                    "If he were here today, he'd still be with the department," Phil Smith said. "He would have moved up the ranks. He would be having a great life.

                    "He's been dead longer than he had been alive."

                    His dad, Whitey Smith, said his youngest of three sons was a good athlete and never gave him and his wife, Lee, any trouble.

                    "He wasn't a smoker, wasn't a drinker, never missed school," Whitey Smith said.

                    Whitey and Lee Smith divorced for the second time after Scott's death, and Lee died in 2005.

                    "It hurt Mother real bad," Whitey said, but she turned to her faith for strength.

                    He didn't, he said.

                    "I don't talk much about it," Whitey said. "Maybe there's people who know me who don't even know."

                    Whitey, 84 and typically quick with a grin and funny story, falls unusually quiet as he surveys the spot where his youngest son died a few months before turning 22.

                    He shakes his head.

                    "I just can't imagine."

                    A humbled survivor

                    Cutler doesn't share his story much. As he told it this week, members of his crew at Station No. 6 peeked in and listened.

                    It was just supposed to be a smoke training session, in which smoke fills up a building and firefighters use their sense of touch to try to find hidden items, then follow the water hose back to the exit. They were anxious to get it over with so they could eat the homemade burritos Duran had promised for lunch.

                    The men suited up and headed inside the garage, even though smoke was billowing out of the building, Cutler said, an ominous sign that routinely means a fire should be fought from the outside.

                    But it was a training exercise, and that meant trusting the people who'd set it up, Cutler said.

                    The men crawled along the floor and retrieved the three items. Cutler could only recall one — a box.

                    Cutler's knees were hot, another bad firefighter omen. Duran said it was getting too hot, so the men turned around to head out. That's when fire filled the garage.

                    Heating the rickety structure to up to 2,000 degrees, flames filled every space from the floor to the ceiling. Cutler called it a "gauntlet of orange."

                    He remembers hearing a scream before diving out of where he thought the door was. He crashed to the ground through a false wall and was lit on fire. A nearby construction worker rushed to Cutler's aid and helped extinguish the flames on his body.

                    None of the men but Lt. Cyrus Pinkerton, who was running the training session, knew the layout of the partitioned garage before the exercise.

                    Pinkerton, who suffered minor burns, was on the fire engine trying to get water onto the blaze. Cutler tried to rush to help him but then realized his body felt "crinkley" and "stiff."

                    Cutler spent three months in a burn unit, suffering second- and third-degree burns on up to 60 percent of his body. He endured nine surgeries and two years in a tight nylon body suit to help his skin heal.

                    Cutler never thought about giving up the job. Nine months after the accident, he was back on the line. And he still is.

                    "No. 1, I'm not a quitter," Cutler said.

                    And second, he said, why would he leave the department that, each day, had driven his newly pregnant wife to Denver to see him in the hospital?

                    "I love what I do, and the support is here," Cutler said. "You leave the job, and what do you have? The horrible memories — I don't want to deal with them myself."

                    Cutler didn't set out to become a firefighter until he was 30. He had earned a bachelor's and master's degree in economics and was working on a doctorate when a friend mentioned a job opening at a squad. Since nearly losing a brother in a fire as a teen, he said he had always been interested in firefighting, so he tried out and got the job.

                    Cutler, 61, plans to retire next year. His second daughter, who was born around the time he got out of the hospital, is getting married this year.

                    He will talk publicly about the accident this anniversary to help people understand, he said, and to help with healing. And whenever the families ask questions, he tells them all he can.

                    "It's all a matter of helping everyone get through it," Cutler said.

                    Wearing his blue firefighter uniform, Cutler kicks at the ground and keeps his hands in his pockets while at the accident site. He says in a choked-up voice that he can see the fire unfold as clearly as if it happened yesterday.

                    But he doesn't need to come here to remember.

                    "I have my burns to look at," he says.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If you said "Lairdsville? Where is that?"

                      READ THIS!

                      http://server.firehouse.com/training...6_FHniosh.html
                      Tom

                      Never Forget 9-11-2001

                      Stay safe out there!

                      IACOJ Member

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In regards to the first post, why would you do stupid stuff like this? When dumbass people do stuff like this,and a fellow firefighter gets injured ,that just makes it more and more harder to actually do live burns.It's going to get to the point where we wont even be allowed to do burns someday I think. They're going to get someone seriously hurt down there. I take it this was in a local paper probably?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "In regards to the first post, why would you do stupid stuff like this? "

                          Because its cool, don't you know? Everyone has to be "salty" and look "experienced". Take a look at the photographs. How many melted Bourke's do you see nowadays? Actions don't stand for anything; you need to melt that Garrity light on your lid "real good". Those are the "good shots" the "money shots" for your magazines and websites.

                          "Each firefighter got one or two chances to extinguish the fire in the room, Jewell said. Then, in what is known as a rookie roast, the firefighters were tested to see how long they could safely withstand the heat of an intense blaze."

                          So the group of 16, maybe everyone got at least one shot on the nob? Could have taken that "roast time" and given more instruction.

                          "We stay in there until the last possible moment to see who buckles. Jewell said. It’s not dangerous, just makes you feel like you want to leave. The idea is, you stay with your partner no matter what and its hot and dark."

                          Yeah. Why not teach them about the mayday and LUNAR and PASS devices.

                          "It's going to get to the point where we wont even be allowed to do burns someday I think."

                          Going to? I bet we're a lot closer than you think.

                          William Carey
                          Last edited by bcarey; 01-30-2007, 11:01 PM.
                          "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
                          Andy Fredericks,
                          FDNY E.48, SQ.18
                          Alexandria, VA F.D.

                          Rest in Peace

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Makes me think of a quote I hear frequently on my career department and totally despise. "The fire went out and no one got hurt, so we must have done it right." Apparently these guys have the same mentality. When will they ever learn?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You know; it's strange, but I could have sworn NFPA and NIOSH outlawed the use of flammable liquids and live victims for training exercises.
                              Where could I have possibly read that?
                              AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I remember; it was right here at Firehouse.com.
                              So, these jamokes who want to roast rookies do it in the safest possible way?
                              They have total control over the fire behavior? The rookies are with "experienced" firefighters; the ones without brains?
                              I'll bet they had a news team there so they could show their community how sharp they are! Any takers?
                              Pukers in turnout gear.
                              CR
                              Visit www.iacoj.com
                              Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
                              RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

                              Comment

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