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Capt VS Lt

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  • Capt VS Lt

    A department not terribly far from mine is changing their rank structure from having a Capt. on every shift at every house, to having 1 Capt. for the house and then the other shifts will have Lt's as company officers. If my understanding is correct this will pretty much reflect the rank structure of FDNY as far as Lt's and Capt's go. Now this are doing this for a cost saving measure in the budget so that they don't have to pay more employees a higher salary which sucks for the brothers there.

    My question is for any of the FDNY guys or anyone that is quite familiar with their system. Other than the name Capt and Lt, and the pay difference, what more responsibilities do the Capts have that they Lt's don't? Do they Capt's have more admin work, ie they do everyone's eval or do the Lt's do the evals of the people they work with?
    Real men wear kilts. www.forourfallen.org

  • #2
    As per regulations


    10.1.1 Company commanders shall exercise full command and control of units under their jurisdiction. They shall be responsible for all administrative matters affecting such units and assigned members also, care and maintenance of quarters, apparatus, equipment, and all department property.

    10.1.2 Company commanders, having jurisdiction over special units, shall be responsible for the proper maintenance, operation and records of such units. They shall, when members are not specifically assigned, designate qualified members of their command to care for and to operate such apparatus and equipment.

    10.1.3 They shall be charged with maintaining the proper discipline of members also, the efficiency and operation of units under their command.

    10.1.4 Company commanders shall be directly responsible for the proper preparation and forwarding of all administrative reports required by the Regulations, and such reports shall bear their signature.

    10.1.5 They shall prepare and sign fire reports, reports on meritorious acts, charges, deaths, injuries involving members or civilians, accidents or damage to apparatus, and other incidents of an unusual nature occurring or developing during their tours of duty.

    10.1.6 They shall, when on duty in quarters housing more than one unit, be responsible for the proper discipline of all members while in quarters.

    10.1.7 They shall, when detailed to companies, assume the duties and responsibilities of company commanders. However, changes involving company policy or administrative routine shall not be made unless approved by assigned company commander or ordered by division commander.

    10.1.8 They shall require and obtain full cooperation of all lieutenants assigned or detailed to their units in the maintenance of effective administration, discipline and efficiency of such units


    10.2.1 Lieutenants are responsible for the supervision and discipline of members and the efficient operation of units under their jurisdiction during their tour of duty. They shall comply with and enforce specific instructions and orders of the company commander.

    10.2.2 The senior lieutenant in rank, assigned to a unit, shall assume the duties and responsibilities of the company commander under the following conditions:

    A. During an extended leave of absence of the assigned company commander; provided that, no other captain is detailed to the unit.

    B. When no provision is made for the assignment of a company commander to the unit.

    10.2.3 They shall prepare and sign fire reports, reports on meritorious acts, charges, deaths, injuries involving members or civilians, accidents or damage to apparatus, and other incidents of an unusual nature, occurring or developing during their tours of duty.

    10.2.4 They shall cooperate with the company commander in effecting the administration, report preparation, record keeping, discipline, and the efficiency of units.

    10.2.5 When two or more lieutenants are on duty in quarters housing more than one unit, they shall share responsibility for the discipline of all members while in quarters. The officer senior in rank shall be primarily responsible.


    • #3
      As for this Dept you speak of...I can't understand if they are essentially reclassifying Certain members who are Captains to Lt. and there by creating a new title that is superior to the other members who are no longer Captains...they are creating a higher position than before as everyone prior was equal in rank...therefore there should be a pay increase for the new Captains rank and all those who were reclassified as Lt's get to keep their respective salary no?

      Did the Union agree to this?


      PS- We have a Captain for EVERY company not House. And 3 Lts for a total per company of 4 officers.
      Last edited by FFFRED; 01-23-2007, 10:22 AM.


      • #4

        We have a couple of variations...... Shift Work stations have 4 people per shift, X4 Shifts. There is a Captain on one shift, and Lts on the other 3. Daywork Stations have a Captain, if they have a Truck or Squad, or a Lt. if they only run an Engine company. Also, we staff stations, rather than specific units. If there is a Career crew in a station with multiple units, they respond with the first out unit, Volunteers cover the rest. Our Shifts are 24 on, 72 off, or five 8 hour days for Daywork. (Mon-Friday) Currently, there are 16 Stations with 4 people 24/7, 12 stations with 2 people 24/7, 13 stations are Daywork only, and 4 stations are totally Volunteer.
        Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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        Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
        Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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        • #5
          I am not sure if they are reclassifying or essentially taking away
          money. Unfortionately the Unions in NC don't have collective
          bargaining because NC is a right to work state. So City councils
          don't even have to recognize the unions.
          Real men wear kilts. www.forourfallen.org


          • #6
            Originally posted by GFDLT1 View Post
            I am not sure if they are reclassifying or essentially taking away
            money. Unfortionately the Unions in NC don't have collective
            bargaining because NC is a right to work state. So City councils
            don't even have to recognize the unions.
            Sorry for going off topic here, but are you sure about NC and unions? The reason I ask is Fla is a right-to-work state as well, but cities do have to negotiate with employee unions if one exsists. All right-to-work means is employees do not have to join the union.

            Back to the topic...

            We dont have captains.
            Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

            IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

            "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
            RUSH-Tom Sawyer

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            Failure is when fantasy meets reality


            • #7
              Are you talking about Trenton NJ? A consultant recommended the same thing for them. Curretly 4 Captains per Company, if approved they will have one Captain per company and three LT's, so 30 or some Captains will be demoted to LT's.


              • #8
                No, not Trenton. My understanding is that Greenville,NC (where East Carolina University ECU is) is going to do this.
                Real men wear kilts. www.forourfallen.org


                • #9
                  The City of Syracuse Fire Department in New York also operates this way.
                  Chris Shields
                  Lieutenant / EMT
                  Haz-Mat Technician
                  East Syracuse Fire Dept
                  Onondaga County, NY


                  • #10
                    I think what you are looking for is an answer to why this seems logical to change. I think it sounds logical for a couple of reasons.

                    1. Span of control. You can assign 5-6 FF's to each Lt., 5-6 Lts. to one Captain, 5-6 Captains to one Battalion Chief, 5-6 BC's to one Deputy Chief, etc. on up the food chain. Some departments are top brass heavy. It really matters for job duties and responibilities. Does a Captain have more responsibilities than a LT?? I think structuring this way keeps more control of what is going on and makes the line officers more accountable.

                    2. Typically a Captain is superior to a Lt. It all depends on how the Captain fits into the food chain. LAFD for example, (correct me if I'm wrong) does not have Lt's only Captains. DCFD has Sgt's. too. I would agree to the change if no one's pay is cut because no matter what happens that is bad. If the Captain has more duties and responsibility than a Lt. then naturally they should make a little more money. If the Lt's have the same as a Captain, then they should make the same as a Captain.

                    My department is paid on call so not sure if it counts but here goes.....

                    1 Chief
                    1 ***'t Chief
                    2 Captains
                    4 Lt's

                    Firefighters are broken down into 2 platoons of about 15-20 FF's each. Each platoon has 2 Lt's and one Captain. The Captains manages the platoons at the same time assists the ***'t Chief with his/her duties. It works pretty smoothly handling issues. Right now we only have one Captain, me! so I am pretty busy usually.

                    Again, it all depends on what responsibilities and duties that go with the rank.
                    Jason Knecht
                    Township Fire Dept., Inc.
                    Eau Claire, WI

                    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
                    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!


                    • #11
                      Our rank structure is a Deputy and Captain at HQ, with Lieutenants in the substations. Captains and LT's ride with the engines, the Deputy in the car. The ladders and the rescue are staffed by a minimum of 2 firefighters

                      I would love to see an officer on every piece, but I know that is not going to happen in my career.

                      The Captains handle the day to day stuff on each group, but the Deputy is the overall shift commander.

                      A lot of California FD's operate with the ranks of Captains and engineers.

                      in my opinion.. demoting Captains to fill LT positions may save money (and the MUTTS love that), but the morale of those demoted will go down the tubes, and it will effect the firefighters ranks as well.
                      ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                      Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY


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