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  • #31
    U of I got together with some doctors probably 7 or more years ago and their findings were published in FE.
    It showed significant heat stress over 3/4 and long coat. I'm sure someone at the fireservice institute still has it.

    Comment


    • #32
      1)
      Of course in about fifty years we'll either have robots

      I'd give it more like 20 years, Rescue101. (Suddenly recalling 20 years ago I had 3/4s, a cotton duck coat, a non-impact cap helmet, an open cab ladder, orange gloves, darth vader air pack, and even rode the rear step to a call once...wow...)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1ZSMauCEWs

      2)
      What is the current status of Boston's Bunker Gear policy?

      I know they went to Officer's / Member's discretion in most situations in 2000 and IIRC the initial report in '02 found most injuries (burns, heat stress) remained the same but there was some reduction in leg / knee injuries. HOWEVER, I also got the impression that report was getting some heavy influence from the gear makers the way it read.

      Have they continued the discretionary policy or gone back to fulltime, full bunkers?

      3)
      I wonder if the original poster ever realized Fred wasn't being sarcastic...

      Comment


      • #33
        BFD PPE study
        http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/tr_02dm.pdf


        I'm fairly sure BFD still has their modified turnout gear policy

        I beleive that there are 3 ensembles they can use

        1. Full Turnout
        2. 3/4 boots, Long coat
        3. FR Pants, Structural Boots(10"), and Turnout coat.


        again i'm not 100% on this, but I saw all 3 ensembles last week when I was in the city.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by ChicagoFF
          I don't even know why I bother to answer this post since most of you are so close minded that you can't imagine guys wanting to wear good gear and not wanting to be swaddled like a freakin baby so that they feel no heat at all, but thats the story so far. What a complete and total disaster for reason, sanity, and performance. The sissies are winning and soon you will all be banned from doing anything on the fireground in the name of safety. The majority of lodd are cardiac related, yet we continue to insist that it is better to wear hotter and hotter gear. Pile it on and continue to drop of heart attacks while screaming to the world with your last pitiful breath how safe you were. This is the way the fire service ends - not with a bang, but with a whimper. Go ahead and continue to bow down to nfpa, ifsta, manufacturers, small minded suburban chiefs and cowardly pencil pushers. In the end it will not get the public any better service or make you any safer. All it will do is strip this profession of pride and enrich a cowardly few.....


          So now I'm a sissy for wanting to be in bunker gear? Yes I said I want to be in bunker gear. So what does that make you a big bad real live leather lung? I am not disputing the gear choice, that is a totally different issue. My problem is the fact you have been accustomed to a "minority" department, meaning you have a department rich in tradition and have kept your 3/4's and longs, for decades. There are departments bigger than the CFD who have been in complete turnouts (like the majority of the FD's) for umteen years, but you think that the "Safety Sissies" are going overboard. Get off your high horse and look at the overall picture, not just in Chicago. I guess because I "don't feel heat" like you do that just makes you the Super Jake. You are no different than anyone else who has complained over the many years about change (ie. wearing SCBA's, riding tailbord, etc), the only difference is you have the internet to b*tch on.

          I believe change can be a good thing, if implemented and researched the correct way. A white hat coming in saying "..do it this way cuz I said..." will not go over well. But a chief who says ".....we have spent the last six months researching and comparing the standards with our needs and abilities and we feel this change can be ....." will have alot more respect and acceptance from his crews. Plus, they are supposed to make the decisions, and that always doesn't make everyone happy.

          It's guys like Billy G, Mike Stefano, Ron Moore, Vincent Dunn, etc. that are helping to change the fire service. That change is "education and awareness". But, there are issues that they all have come across, and tackled the issue, which has led to new standards and ways to do things to make us safer.

          Just stop and look outside CFD. You guys are good, but everyone has room for improvement.
          The only person who does not screw up, is the person who does not do anything.

          Comment


          • #35
            >again i'm not 100% on this, but I saw all 3 ensembles last week when I was
            >in the city.

            Thanks UX! I don't get into the city very often, and when I do it's usually scurrying between a hole in the ground to the Hynes. Your observation is pretty good evidence they're continuing the policy, which is probably the most reasonable out there.

            Which means they're the better part of a decade into this protocol.

            Comment


            • #36
              Wow....Just when I thought this couldn't get any more interesting....This could get ugly
              Tom

              Never Forget 9-11-2001

              Stay safe out there!

              IACOJ Member

              Comment


              • #37
                Yes, we in bunkers are sissies, but we get the job done. The wonderful part of man is that he can fulfill seemingly contradictory roles in life.
                Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

                Comment


                • #38
                  It doesn't help that they went with their LAST choice. I don't care where you are from, NO ONE should be happy with that. What the city said by doing that is that we "care" about your safety but not enough to spend the correct amount of money on it.
                  Tom

                  Never Forget 9-11-2001

                  Stay safe out there!

                  IACOJ Member

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by NYSmokey View Post
                    It doesn't help that they went with their LAST choice. I don't care where you are from, NO ONE should be happy with that. What the city said by doing that is that we "care" about your safety but not enough to spend the correct amount of money on it.
                    That's the real issue with CFD going to bunkers. Not that they got bunkers, but that they got crap for bunkers (especially since the gear was rated last by them).
                    Fir Na Tine
                    Fir Na Au Saol

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Look the turn out thing is simple really coming from a couple of different angles.

                      1) The new ensemble in Chicago is mandated by the FD admin. So far now at least they have to wear it. Doesn't mean they can't work to affect some changes in policy, but for now they have no choice.

                      2) The fact that some prefer to wear full PPE does not make them a safety suzy anymore than others wearing 3/4's boots and a long coat makes anybody else an uber firefighter.

                      3) It shouldn't make one damn bit of difference to anyone who isn't a member of that particular FD if they wear 3/4 boots and long coats, or full bunkers and a hood, or add a Reed hood or any other choice of PPE their FD allows because frankly it doesn't affect you one tiny bit does it?

                      So how about everybody just get over themselves and let's discuss important stuff like what the house cook made for supper last night.

                      FyredUp
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                        Look the turn out thing is simple really coming from a couple of different angles.

                        1) The new ensemble in Chicago is mandated by the FD admin. So far now at least they have to wear it. Doesn't mean they can't work to affect some changes in policy, but for now they have no choice.

                        2) The fact that some prefer to wear full PPE does not make them a safety suzy anymore than others wearing 3/4's boots and a long coat makes anybody else an uber firefighter.

                        3) It shouldn't make one damn bit of difference to anyone who isn't a member of that particular FD if they wear 3/4 boots and long coats, or full bunkers and a hood, or add a Reed hood or any other choice of PPE their FD allows because frankly it doesn't affect you one tiny bit does it?

                        So how about everybody just get over themselves and let's discuss important stuff like what the house cook made for supper last night....

                        FyredUp
                        Or for lunch today....
                        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Had a nice chat with my good friend who is a Lt. in the 5th District. Lets just say there are going to be some "growing pains" with the new gear.
                          IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            why? WHY? must every topic regarding Chicago's preferance of 3/4's over full PPE turn into a ****ing match?

                            There are departments bigger than the CFD who have been in complete turnouts (like the majority of the FD's) for umteen years, but you think that the "Safety Sissies" are going overboard. Get off your high horse and look at the overall picture, not just in Chicago. I guess because I "don't feel heat" like you do that just makes you the Super Jake. You are no different than anyone else who has complained over the many years about change (ie. wearing SCBA's, riding tailbord, etc), the only difference is you have the internet to b*tch on.

                            There is a major difference though between most of what you mentioned and the current issue. No one will deny that not wearing a SCBA in a working fire is deadly. No one will deny that riding on the tailboard has caused many deaths.

                            BUT, when there are several high level reports out there saying that wearing 3/4's have been shown to reduce stress and if the current level of injuries from wearing 3/4's are no higher than wearing Full PPE.... why... WHY change?

                            Just because everyone else is doing it? Change just for the sake of change?

                            I'm sure i can hear you now. "Well, what if someone got deep into the fire and it flashed on him. His 3/4s wouldnt protect him then...."

                            Well... WHY the hell are you that deep into the fire?

                            Use common sense.

                            Plus... you buy the cheap crap and it breaks. That would make anyone mad
                            The Box. You opened it. We Came...

                            "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by JHR1985 View Post
                              I'm sure i can hear you now. "Well, what if someone got deep into the fire and it flashed on him. His 3/4s wouldnt protect him then...."

                              Well... WHY the hell are you that deep into the fire?

                              Use common sense.
                              Alright.

                              You ain't gotta be deep to be involved in a situation where bunker gear becomes vital to keeping you united with your skin.

                              I believe if it ain't broke don't fix it, but I also believe in examining all options. Chicago has been putting out their fires and rescuing people with the previous gear, so ChiFF's irritation is understandable. The guys I know who went from 3/4 and pull up boots love having bunkers and we're not dropping like flies from heart attacks. Neither system is broke, apparently.

                              The worst part is that Chicago chose gear the firefighters didn't like. Of course, there might be method to the madness.
                              Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Sounds like admin. timed the gear swap just in time for the new recruits from the last testing process.

                                I think this MIGHT have went over easier if they chose what the guys wanted. You don't change something so dramatic, something that protects your life, and order what they rated as the worst option in PPE. The guys out on the ground are the ones wearing it not the guys at admin. IF you don't have the money to get the appropriate gear or whatever it might be. Don't get it!

                                Chicago is known for the 3/4 coats and hip boots. I thought it was amazing they still fight fire, more than many of us with no problems.

                                Comment

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