Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Trains and Firetrucks

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Trains and Firetrucks

    Train hits firetruck near downtown Los Angeles.
    Updated: 12-25-2006 01:17:15 PM

    Ten passengers and a firefighter were taken to hospitals for minor injuries Friday evening when a Blue Line commuter train struck a firetruck on an emergency call near downtown Los Angeles, authorities said.

    The ladder truck and its crew were crossing Washington Boulevard at Central Avenue about 5 p.m. when the accident occurred, police and fire officials said.

    "It looks like a big oops," said Los Angeles Police Sgt. Jeff Tepich, who was on the scene. "If [the train] is pulling a lot of weight even at a slow speed it's hard to stop."

    The six-car train, which was carrying passengers from downtown Los Angeles to Long Beach, struck the center of the ladder truck and derailed, blocking both tracks. The truck was on its way to a small fire; a second engine was sent in its place.

    A spokesman for the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority said the train operator had a green light when she proceeded into the intersection and did not see or hear the firetruck, which had its lights and sirens on.

    "She said she did not hear the firetruck, but when she saw it in the intersection she used the emergency brake," spokesman Dave Sotero said.

    "It is a notorious bad intersection," Assistant Fire Chief Ralph M. Terrazas said.

    In response to several fatal collisions along the Blue Line route, flashing yellow signs have been added to warn motorists turning right on Washington to watch for the crossing train. No such warnings have been installed on Central.

    The collision is under investigation, but Tepich said the train has the right of way, especially when the light is red.

    "Our policy is to come to a complete stop at all red lights and stop signs before entering an intersection," Terrazas said.


    The train, which was traveling in an area with a speed limit of 35 mph, was carrying about 250 rush-hour commuters, he said. City Fire Department personnel said they assessed about 25 passengers for mostly minor injuries at the scene.

    The injured firefighter was working as the apparatus operator, steering the long truck from the rear. After the crash, he complained of back and neck pain, Terrazas said.

    The tracks were closed in both directions for more than three hours while officials investigated the crash and removed debris.

    The firetruck was towed, and the train, with a crushed front windshield, was pushed back onto the tracks.

    Dozens of commuters walked down Central Avenue in the dark between the San Pedro and Washington stations, where transit service began and ended. Additional buses were added to bridge the service interruption, Sotero said.

    Under MTA policy, the driver was required to be tested for possible drug and alcohol use.


    I guess the train should have yielded.

    We're in such a rush that we miss a train? C'mon guys ... even the most hardcore go get em' boys have to admit that not seeing a train and not stopping at tracks, even if the warning lights aren't flashing is a little over the top. In this case the article seems to indicate that the apapratus may have had a red light, which makes the situation even worse. And it appears that the apparatus may have voliated department policy about stopping, according to a fire department official.

    Two years ago a firefighter in south Louisiana was killed because he didn't see a train on the way to an EMS call. How much time is it going to take to stop at tracks and check? Really ...
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  • #2
    Are you just itching to hang firemen out to dry? It seems an aweful lot like you are to me.
    This has nothing to do with your 'green light' stop policy.

    Comment


    • #3
      It has nothing to do with wanting to hand fireman out to dry.

      It has everything to do with reducing LODDs, especially those that occur even before we get an incident. I'm sorry if you disagree that being so focused on getting to a call is that we miss a 60 ton locomtive and flashing red lights is just plain wrong, but to me, that tunnek vision just rediculious. We know where the trains are ... it isn't that hard to make sure the tracks are clear.

      I'm sorry if my post seem to indicate that I hold apparatus operators responsible for thier actions. I do. It's the drivers responsibility to follow department policy, which according to a Chief officer he did not. It's the driver's responsibility and it's the law in most states to clear intersections and train tracks before passing through/over. In the past few weeks there have been several examples, including this one, where the driver obviously did not. We are not responding safely. And we are killing and injuring firefighters ans civilians because we are not. That is exactly what this post has to do with.

      As I said, in the past 2 years we had a firefighter killed when he was hit by a train while responding, and just last year 2 EMTs were killed when thier ambulance was hit by a train while hauling a patient. that accident occurred while the ambo was backing over the tracks at slow speed after just loading.
      And a few years ago an engine hit a train and caused a major derailment in Virginia with several deaths and like 60-70 injuries responding to a car fire. There is simply no excuse for missing or trying to outrun a train. None.
      Train to fight the fires you fight.

      Comment


      • #4
        Train VS Firetruck

        Well from what I remember from my drivers training, if a train is coming, we wait. This comes from a ladder truck that tried to beat a train to a crossing, the truck lost and it cost the lives of at least two volunteer fire fighters.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm sorry if you disagree that being so focused on getting to a call is that we miss a 60 ton locomtive and flashing red lights is just plain wrong

          No, what is plain wrong is you sitting up on high, once again, pointing fingers while an investigation is still under way. However, that is exactly what we have come to expect from you now, isn‘t it.
          We have guys like you in my department, who like to point fingers, who like to find blame with rig drivers no matter what. Is the driver wrong here? I don’t know, I don’t believe anything other than speculation has been given so far. Once again, I’ll wait before I start ripping him.


          I'm sorry if my post seem to indicate that I hold apparatus operators responsible for thier actions. I do.
          Drivers are held responsible here, as well, when they’re found to be in the wrong. Maybe, if you ever drove an emergency vehicle in a town that has more than 3 stop lights, you might understand that some accidents are unavoidable, on the part of the apparatus driver. Stuff happens. Sometimes people hit your rig no matter what you do, or how many green lights you stop at.
          We have very good drivers here, we have a great training program in place when drivers are promoted, and we still have accidents. Very few of them are found to have the rig driver at fault.

          Quit going out of your way to find these guys at fault. IF they are at fault the investigation will reveal that. Has this accident investigation been concluded yet?


          From the article YOU posted :

          The collision is under investigation, but Tepich said the train has the right of way, especially when the light is red.

          The key words are UNDER INVESTIGATION.

          Comment


          • #6
            A spokesman for the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority said the train operator had a green light when she proceeded into the intersection and did not see or hear the firetruck, which had its lights and sirens on.
            I guess this whole big issue would've been avoided if the train just stopped at green lights....
            My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

            IACOJ--West Coast PITA

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Leeland View Post
              Well from what I remember from my drivers training, if a train is coming, we wait. This comes from a ladder truck that tried to beat a train to a crossing, the truck lost and it cost the lives of at least two volunteer fire fighters.
              (sarcasm light is ON). Now thats a funny thing (sarcasm light is Off). I always thought (and was taught) that we stop at ALL railway crossings, whether they are controlled by barriers and lights or not, at ALL TIMES. The places I've worked, all fire dept vehicles are expected to follow the same rules as for school buses, and most fuel tanker trucks. You stop then go. As LAFire says, how do You as the Officer (?) fail to notice a train in motion? Especially when you have the red light.

              As for the train operator not hearing the sirens. Considering the amount of noise that most trains make, I'm not sure she would have heard it until it was in her face anyhow. But thats just MHO. And no, my comments are not about putting a brother out to hang - thats not my style, but once again, that funky phrase that so many here seem to not want to hear comes to my mind:

              ".... the Operator of Emergency Apparatus must use all due regard for safety and rules of the road, while the vehicle is in motion... at all times...." BLA BLA BLA BLA.....
              If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

              "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

              "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

              Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

              impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

              IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                we miss a 60 ton locomtive and flashing red lights is just plain wrong, but to me, that tunnek vision just rediculious.
                According to you, civilian motorists miss the large fire apparatus with lights AND sirens on because of their tunnel vision...and it's still the chauffer's fault.

                Your logic...if anyone can call it that...is also "just rediculous."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nine3Probie View Post
                  According to you, civilian motorists miss the large fire apparatus with lights AND sirens on because of their tunnel vision...and it's still the chauffer's fault.

                  Your logic...if anyone can call it that...is also "just rediculous."
                  Not really, it's just a bastardization of the old "The Customer is Always Right" saying... only in our case it's: "The Civilian is Always Right". The unspoken counterpoint there being "The Engineer is Always Wrong"...
                  My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

                  IACOJ--West Coast PITA

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    and not stopping at tracks, even if the warning lights aren't flashing is a little over the top
                    It is not our policy to stop at all track crossings, unless the railroad warning lights are on and the gates are either down or going down.

                    Trains should have the right of way. They are very hard to stop and damn near impossible to turn.



                    An accident involving a fire truck and a train occurred. Check your policies, know your procedures, review your driving habits. End of discussion.
                    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Questions:

                      Were any of us there?
                      Does the railraod crossing has gates/lights?
                      Were they functioning at the time?
                      Was there clear line of sight of both sides of the tracks from the roadway?

                      Has the investigation been concluded?

                      Then we should refrain from commenting until the questions have been answered.
                      Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 12-27-2006, 03:37 PM. Reason: spelling error
                      ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                      Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Has the investigation been concluded?

                        Then we shoudl refrain from commenting until the questions have been answered.
                        *snaps to attention* Aye, aye, Chief!

                        Can we at least drop a few more "stopping at green" jokes on LA?
                        My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

                        IACOJ--West Coast PITA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Maybe if we put Green Lights on all the trucks, all other vehicles/trains will stop for us.
                          "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Maybe a modified version of Gordon Graham's "Law of lugnuts" applies here.According to Gordon(and I support this)the law of lugnuts says,in a collision,the vehicle with the most lugnuts wins.In this case it would be the law of GVW.Whichever vehicle has the highest GVW (train) wins.The secondary message as taught to us as wee ones is:NEVER mess with a train.Like Gonz says,we weren't there and the incident is still under investigation.I think it CAN be safely said however,that the law of lugnuts applies here. T.C.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The important thing as of now is that all the firefighters are OK as well as the passengers.

                              Comment

                              300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                              Collapse

                              Upper 300x250

                              Collapse

                              Taboola

                              Collapse

                              Leader

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X