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  • High Rise / Standpipe Bags

    My Department is in the process of modifying / changeing the way we approach standpipes in high rises, we are looking at adding officer bags, can anybody advise if they are using these and what they carry.

    Thanks

  • #2
    Could you elaborate on what an "officer's bag" is? Is this a local term you guys use for the bag that carries the tools needed at the outlet connection?

    We carry two types of Standpipe bags. One for the Engine Chauffer to bypass the siamees if needed, and the other is carried by the Control Man.

    Control bag has:
    1 Large Stillson Wrench
    1 45 deg elbow (recessed closet connections)
    Chocks, wooden
    Spanners
    Spare Operating wheels, 2 types
    1.75"x2.5" increaser
    Spare 2.5" w/ 1 1/8 tip SB nozzle
    FDNYxNST thread adapter
    spare brass Standpipe sleave
    breaker bar (homemade)
    2.5" Inline PSI gague
    Proper Sized fittings

    ECC bag:
    Fitting neccesary to connect and supply an outlet if the inlet is OOS.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 12-04-2006, 10:29 AM.
    IACOJ Member

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    • #3
      I don't deal with standpipes anymore but I used to.

      We had 3 loads that went in,

      The captains pack was 50' of 3" hose and a gated wye

      1st Firefighter took the irons and a high rise pack, which was 200' 1.5" hose and a fog nozzle
      2nd Firefighter took a high rise pack and the standpipe bag

      The standpipe bag had

      2.5" double male and double female
      two 2.5-1.5" reducers
      Crows foot
      door wedges
      2 hose straps
      2 spanners
      Rubber mallet


      (I know 1.5" hose on a standpipe, several of us including the Asst Chief tried to get this changed to 2.5" hose or at least to put a break away 1.5" nozzle on the 1.5" hose but the Chief and several loud firefighters were against it).



      Vinnie why do you carry the increaser?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by NonSurfinCaFF
        1st Firefighter took the irons and a high rise pack, which was 200' 1.5" hose and a fog nozzle
        ???? Oh man, we (the US F.S.) just refuse to learn from others mistakes and triumphs! Wouldn't taking the "can" in be easier and nearly as effective?

        I'd think that you could have two guys take highrise packs of 2.5" hose and the third person (officer)could bring an extra fittings bag and still end up with more "firepower" and less work! Of course the 2.5" needs to tip out with SB.

        The problems
        1. 1.5" hose has high friction loss for a minimal flow.
        2. Fog nozzles need higher NP (unless specifically purchased as low pressure)
        This reduced flow, automatic nozzle looks great while barely putting out
        any water. Wich is bad on any day, nevermind many floors away from the
        ground.
        3. Standpipe systems most often are not designed to flow at greater than 65
        psi. So at 100 gpm with your 200 ft line after FL you have 15 psi for NP.
        Of course the nozzle will compensate and actually look like a decent
        stream!! That's with a target flow of 100 gpm, hardly what is considered
        a proper fire stream for today's fire loads.

        A better way:
        1. 2.5" hose instead of 3" reduced to 1.5" . Better flows (250 gpm w/ 1 1/8" tip) at only 15 psi FL per 100 ft.
        2. SB nozzle with 1 1/8" tip for 250 gpm and the open end to pass years of scaling debris in the standpipe system.
        3. Given th above highrise pack, if the system isn't compromised you can get your 65 psi at the outlet giving you the 250 gpm at 50 psi NP on 100' of line.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by RFDACM02
          ???? Oh man, we (the US F.S.) just refuse to learn from others mistakes and triumphs! Wouldn't taking the "can" in be easier and nearly as effective?

          I'd think that you could have two guys take highrise packs of 2.5" hose and the third person (officer)could bring an extra fittings bag and still end up with more "firepower" and less work! Of course the 2.5" needs to tip out with SB.

          The problems
          1. 1.5" hose has high friction loss for a minimal flow.
          2. Fog nozzles need higher NP (unless specifically purchased as low pressure)
          This reduced flow, automatic nozzle looks great while barely putting out
          any water. Wich is bad on any day, nevermind many floors away from the
          ground.
          3. Standpipe systems most often are not designed to flow at greater than 65
          psi. So at 100 gpm with your 200 ft line after FL you have 15 psi for NP.
          Of course the nozzle will compensate and actually look like a decent
          stream!! That's with a target flow of 100 gpm, hardly what is considered
          a proper fire stream for today's fire loads.

          A better way:
          1. 2.5" hose instead of 3" reduced to 1.5" . Better flows (250 gpm w/ 1 1/8" tip) at only 15 psi FL per 100 ft.
          2. SB nozzle with 1 1/8" tip for 250 gpm and the open end to pass years of scaling debris in the standpipe system.
          3. Given th above highrise pack, if the system isn't compromised you can get your 65 psi at the outlet giving you the 250 gpm at 50 psi NP on 100' of line.
          Very good sir. Wasn't this a major issue with the Meridian fire?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by quint1officer
            Very good sir. Wasn't this a major issue with the Meridian fire?

            It has been a major issue at many fires over the years.
            Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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            • #7
              True, but I believe it was an issue that cost some of our brothers their lives.

              Comment


              • #8
                ..........................
                Last edited by Nine3Probie; 07-28-2013, 06:15 PM.

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                • #9
                  Here's an interesting snippet from the same report:

                  Originally posted by USFA Tech Report
                  3. Code assumptions about fire department standpipe tactics moved invalid. (p26-27)
                  One of the principal code assumptions affecting fire department operations at One Meridian Plaza concerned the installation of standpipe pressure reducing valves. The rationale for PRVs is the concern that firefighters would be exposed to dangerous operating pressures and forces if they connected hose lines to outlets near the base of standpipe risers of substantial height, particularly those supplied by stationary fire pumps. For example, in a 275 foot high standpipe zone (the highest permitted using standard pipe and fittings), a pressure of 184 psi is required at the base of the riser to overcome elevation and produce the minimum required outlet pressure of 65 psi at the top of the riser. At this pressure, a standard 2 1/2-inch fire hose fitted with a 1 1/8-inch straight bore nozzle would produce a back pressure (reaction force) in excess of 500 pounds. This is a well-founded concern; however, it is built upon the assumption that fire departments use 2 1/2-inch attack lines and straight bore nozzles to attack fires from standpipes. Most fire departments today use 1 3/4-inch and 2-inch hose with fog nozzles for interior attack. These appliances require substantially greater working pressures to achieve effective hose streams.

                  In the aftermath of this incident, the NFPA Technical Committee on Standpipes has proposed a complete revision of NFPA 149 to more closely reflect current fire department operating practices. Section 5-7 of the proposed standard requires a minimum residual pressure of 150 psi at the required flow rate from the topmost 2 1/2-inch hose outlet and 65 psi at the topmost 1 1/2-inch outlet (presumably for occupant use). Minimum flow rates of 500 gpm for the first standpipe and 250 gpm for each additional standpipe remain consistent with past editions of the standard. The proposed new requirements limit the installation of pressure regulating devices to situations where static pressures at hose outlets exceed 100 psi for occupant use hose or 175 psi for fire department use hose. This will provide substantially greater flow and pressure margins for fire department operations. These requirements are intended to apply to new installations and are not retroactive.
                  Last edited by Nine3Probie; 12-05-2006, 11:45 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nine3Probie
                    From reading the USFA Technical Report (available here), it appears that the major problem was not the size of the hose lines in use, but the Pressure Reducing Valves in the standpipe system.
                    It also has to do with the size of the hose. But YES, a PRD will hinder your operation. You CAN "make do" with a PRD if absolutly nessecary, as long as you have 2.5". My Company, the first thing the control man does is remove the PRD, then flushes the outlet. I take off the PRD first, because I want to be sure it will come off, and when I flush the outlet, nothing can get trapped behind it.

                    What I have done as the Control at a standpipe job is after I remove the PRD and flush the outlet ....I kick the sucker down the steps...so its out of my way. The reason for this is because I like to dump my bag in front of me, usually in the corner under the outlet...this way instead of fishing through a bag, all I have to do is look down and get what I need....and I don't have to worry about picking up the PRD by accident.
                    IACOJ Member

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RFDACM02
                      ???? Oh man, we (the US F.S.) just refuse to learn from others mistakes and triumphs! Wouldn't taking the "can" in be easier and nearly as effective?
                      He did state that he and other wanted to change that tactic....but a few jaggazzes in his dept didn't think it was neccessary....thats not his fault!
                      IACOJ Member

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NonSurfinCaFF



                        Vinnie why do you carry the increaser?

                        Sorry CaFF...I just noticed this part.

                        The reason we carry an increaser is if we have to add a length without having to shut down the outlet. We unscrew the Main Stream Tip from the Smoothbore, attach the increaser to were the tip was, then add another lenth of 2.5. This is also why we carry a second nozzle in the control bag.
                        IACOJ Member

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nine3Probie
                          From reading the USFA Technical Report (available here), it appears that the major problem was not the size of the hose lines in use, but the Pressure Reducing Valves in the standpipe system.
                          Any hose will work it is a matter of how much FL is created by the hose that eats up the pressure that is available at the outlet.

                          Due to the low pressures found in stanpipe systems and due to the FACT (that many overlook) that most systems were designed to be used with 2 1/2" by firemen...one should use 2 1/2 hose as that is what the system was designed for and allows for an adequate stream even under low pressure circumstances.

                          FTM-PTB

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by VinnieB
                            Sorry CaFF...I just noticed this part.

                            The reason we carry an increaser is if we have to add a length without having to shut down the outlet. We unscrew the Main Stream Tip from the Smoothbore, attach the increaser to were the tip was, then add another lenth of 2.5. This is also why we carry a second nozzle in the control bag.
                            That makes sense, thanks.

                            And yes, we wanted to change the packs but met much resistance, glad someone noticed that disclaimer as I knew it would come up.

                            Our compromise was the breakaways so we could at least go to a smooth bore if pressure became a problem but that was shot down too (we would have to buy 4 new nozzles).
                            Last edited by NonSurfinCaFF; 12-05-2006, 02:55 PM.

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