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  • #61
    Dog, meet Bone.

    Go Chew.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    • #62
      Obviously...

      Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
      You haven't answered Bones' question...

      Originally Posted by Bones42
      ...it will put it out of business. I didn't answer the question because it (with all due respect to Bones) isn't very illuminating.

      If we wanted to define "risk", for a moment, as the risk of becoming financially unviable, that a certain mandate that affects all facilities is a higher risk than a potential disaster affecting one facility.

      So?

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      • #63
        Originally posted by randsc
        ...it will put it out of business. I didn't answer the question because it (with all due respect to Bones) isn't very illuminating.

        If we wanted to define "risk", for a moment, as the risk of becoming financially unviable, that a certain mandate that affects all facilities is a higher risk than a potential disaster affecting one facility.

        So?
        How many more nursing home patients or those suffering from mental and physical disabilities have to be injured or die in a fire to make the installation of sprinklers viable? One? One Hundred? One Thousand? Ten Thousand?

        The oath I took was to protect life and property. I wasn't aware the one you took was to preserve someone's profit margin....
        Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 12-01-2006, 12:05 AM.
        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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        • #64
          What part of

          Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
          How many more nursing home patients or those suffering from mental and physical disabilities have to be injured or die in a fire to make the installation of sprinklers viable? One? One Hundred? One Thousand? Ten Thousand?

          The oath I took was to protect life and property. I wasn't aware the one you took was to preserve someone's profit margin....
          "If we wanted to define "risk", for a moment, as the risk of becoming financially unviable" was too dificult to understand? I expressly removed the life safety issue to elaborate on Bones' point, which involved the financial viability of the operations.

          And when you're done rolling your eyes, consider what "property" means, in a business context. Oh, and since you bring up an unanswered question from a third poster, where were the responses to the question about how many fire stations are unsprinklered?

          I'm basically done with you guys on this particular issue. It should be clear to you, from the level of detail I have been able to give in my posts, that I have some specialized knowledge of the res-care industry and its mechanics that you do not. If you care to believe that sprinklers can be mandated, without the costs being accounted for, without a negative effect on the availability of a vital public service, so be it. Someday, I would like to live in that fantasyland myself.

          So just to recap before I sign off:

          1. Neither I nor any other poster suggested that sprinklers could not or should not be mandated;

          2. Since aggressive and dubiously lawful regulatory actions, not backed with new funding sources, were implemented in my state, the number of beds in my state has declined by 40%, to the detriment of the very poorest of our elderly;

          3. Most states that have imposed sprinkler mandates have simultaneously provided funding, in the form of higher reimbursements, tax credits or loan programs. Apparently those states just like to waste money, since according to most of the posters on this thread, such funding sources are entirely unnecessary;

          4. There is a difference, in both life safety issues (small difference) and financial models (huge difference) between Nursing Homes and Residential Care Homes. Those wishing to discuss the issue intelligently would be well advised to learn and understand the distinctions;

          5. DianeC's postings regarding very valuable and constructive legislation, and soliciting support for that legislation, received no comment whatever from anyone but me. Because, after all, what is the point of discussing something valuable and constructive if it means missing the opportunity to be "Safetier-than-thou"?

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          • #65
            Should ALL nursing homes be required to have sprinkler systems?
            This poll will close on 12-28-2006 at 02:40 AM
            YES 43 97.73%
            NO 1 2.27%
            NO OPINION 0 0%
            Voters: 44.

            OK, which one of youse comedians voted "NO"?

            (attempting to cool down an increasingly heated discussion)
            No good deed goes unpunished

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Bones42
              Firefighters pushing for laws about sprinklers/alarms in other places while the firefighters themselves don't have such things in their own homes/firestations is a joke.
              I live in a sprinklered apartment building.
              "When I was young, my ambition was to be one of the people who made a difference in this world. My hope is to leave the world a little better for my having been there."
              -- Jim Henson (1936 - 1990)

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              • #67
                While I agree we as a FS in general seem hypocritical for living in unsprinklered homes (not all) this situation is a little different.

                How does one use the analogy of sprinklereing a fire station full of capable, amublatory persons with far more knowledge of how to react to fire and smoke to a residential care facility where the patients many levels of incapacitation?

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                • #68
                  How many firehouses did we read about on fh.com this past year had fires that were undetected?

                  How many nursing home fires did we read about?

                  Believe me, I am all in favor of nursing homes/residential care centers/whatever you want to call them having full protection. I know the few in my town are because they learned from past history. Their reimbursement rates did not change. They were not funded by any outside agencies. They paid the costs themselves and managed to stay in business. Families of the residents were actually happy/impressed that the "homes" cared that much about their residents. While the systems were being put in by each home over time, residents were switching homes to get into the ones that offered the better protection. Imagine that.


                  I also remember in 1981 when 11 people died in a fire in my town where there was no system in place at the seniors home they were living in. I also remember in 1992 when we had another fire in a nursing home with no protection, luckily no fatalities in that one. I also remember in 1995 when a resident in an assisted living home set her own bed on fire and the newly installed sprinkler system snuffed the fire out before any real damage could be done. Like many people on this board, we've seen what happens to the non-ambulatory people at a fire. I will agree and I will even verbally discuss til we're blue in the face that these systems should be put in place.

                  But I still find it hypocrital of the fire service to push for all these things that they don't have themselves. And I'm not talking every firefighter having their personal houses alarmed/sprinklered (which would not be a bad idea) but at least their firehouses.


                  PS - I'm not the No vote.
                  "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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