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  • #31
    Originally posted by randsc
    ...maybe the reimbursement rate in Florida reflects the cost of sprinklers. Hmmm.
    You piqued my curiosity, so I spent a little time doing some research for nursing homes in New Hampshire, as my Mom is a resident there and spent some time in a rehab center/nursing home recently.

    There are 82 nursing homes in New Hampshire, the occupancy rate is 85 to 90%.

    29 are non profit, 42 are for profit, 11 are run by either the County or the State.

    2006 medicare/medicaid average is 172.36 per diem per bed.

    The smallest home is 8 beds, the largest is 300.

    Only 2 nursing homes have less than 20 beds.

    The average sized nursing home in NH is 60 to 100 beds.

    Going from the smallest to largest, based on beds and per diem reimbursements:

    8 beds at $172.36 per bed is $1,378.88 a day, $503,291.20 per year.

    300 beds at $172.36 per bed is $51,708 a day, $18,873,420 per year.

    Knowing they have other expenses, based on geographical area, wages, heating/cooling, meals for patients, etc. I still think that even a small home could afford to install sprinklers. Financing can be through low interest loans and grants.

    The info came from the Medicare website and here http://www.stevegoldada.com/stevegol...?mode=P&id=178
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

    Comment


    • #32
      Lovely

      Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
      You piqued my curiosity, so I spent a little time doing some research for nursing homes in New Hampshire, as my Mom is a resident there and spent some time in a rehab center/nursing home recently.

      There are 82 nursing homes in New Hampshire, the occupancy rate is 85 to 90%.

      29 are non profit, 42 are for profit, 11 are run by either the County or the State.

      2006 medicare/medicaid average is 172.36 per diem per bed.

      The smallest home is 8 beds, the largest is 300.

      Only 2 nursing homes have less than 20 beds.

      The average sized nursing home in NH is 60 to 100 beds.

      Going from the smallest to largest, based on beds and per diem reimbursements:

      8 beds at $172.36 per bed is $1,378.88 a day, $503,291.20 per year.

      300 beds at $172.36 per bed is $51,708 a day, $18,873,420 per year.

      Knowing they have other expenses, based on geographical area, wages, heating/cooling, meals for patients, etc. I still think that even a small home could afford to install sprinklers. Financing can be through low interest loans and grants.
      Now go back and figure out what the difference between a nursing home an assisted living home is, because as I said in my first response to this thread, there is an important distinction to be made.

      Apples to apples, and all that. And please note that the Missouri fire was in a res care home, not a nursing home. This ain't just semantics; we are talking about two different things.

      Comment


      • #33
        For your further edification...

        Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
        You piqued my curiosity, so I spent a little time doing some research for nursing homes in New Hampshire, as my Mom is a resident there and spent some time in a rehab center/nursing home recently.

        There are 82 nursing homes in New Hampshire, the occupancy rate is 85 to 90%.

        29 are non profit, 42 are for profit, 11 are run by either the County or the State.

        2006 medicare/medicaid average is 172.36 per diem per bed.

        The smallest home is 8 beds, the largest is 300.

        Only 2 nursing homes have less than 20 beds.

        The average sized nursing home in NH is 60 to 100 beds.

        Going from the smallest to largest, based on beds and per diem reimbursements:

        8 beds at $172.36 per bed is $1,378.88 a day, $503,291.20 per year.

        300 beds at $172.36 per bed is $51,708 a day, $18,873,420 per year.

        Knowing they have other expenses, based on geographical area, wages, heating/cooling, meals for patients, etc. I still think that even a small home could afford to install sprinklers. Financing can be through low interest loans and grants.

        The info came from the Medicare website and here http://www.stevegoldada.com/stevegol...?mode=P&id=178
        From the Department of Health and Human Services:

        A Medicaid waiver was approved in 1999 that includes assisted living. The State also has provided a state SSI supplement for residential care facilities since the 1980s that currently totals $758 a month (federal and state) to pay for room and board, which includes a PNA of $50. Assisted living coverage is available in both non-licensed subsidized housing sites and licensed facilities. The State uses a flat Medicaid payment of $1,250 a month for services in residential care facilities and $50 per day in non-licensed elderly housing programs, including room and board paid by the resident

        Bit of a difference, eh?

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        • #34
          Just to do the math for you...

          ...since you were kind enough to do it for me:

          8 beds @ $1250 a month X 12 months = 120K a year.

          That's for full room and board, with 24 hour staffing.

          Comment


          • #35
            I guess the operative word is ASSISTED or did I miss something?

            Please note also that the original article starts with the word Advocates

            I thought people were allowed to say their point of view?

            What I am trying to say is if you want to do the Feel Good trip and set up a shelter all kudos to you. Just don't bleat at me if it goes t!ts up and you have not provided adequate protection

            Do it right, do it once and it will help people.

            Stuff it up and theres a world of hurt coming your way.
            Last edited by FlyingKiwi; 11-29-2006, 12:06 AM.
            Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
            Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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            • #36
              Of course...

              ...you are allowed to post your views, and I am very glad that you have done so.

              MY view is that to pretend that cost isn't a factor that needs to be addressed is woefully niaive at best.

              Or maybe I'm niaive, in thinking that the government should pay its contractors for services rendered, and pay more if more services are rendered.

              Good thing no firefighters have ever been unhappy about what the government wants to pay for fire protection, eh?

              Comment


              • #37
                My opinion

                How about this. Pass the law that all new and to be renovated buildings must be sprinklered. All staff must be trained in fire suppression similar to an industrial brigade but with extinguishers and such. Give a subsidy to any homes that are sprinklered, this encourages the homes to convert.
                Perhaps it is a good idea but I would like to hhear your ideas about it.
                J
                It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Now, myself being a missouri resident and living not too far from the incident in which I presume this topic is being based on, the building was pre-1980. This may not mean anything to you but it did not have to have a sprinkler system when it was built.

                  In missouri the individual counties are who determine building and fire codes. In my county (Greene) the City of Springfield has a pretty strict fire code but once you get out in the county there is no real fire code, only what little is required in new construction which as you know is not that much. The individual districts are tasked with coming up with "enforcing" code violations and I use that term loosely. Since there is no code, we can not force them to change violations only suggest that they change them. I belive the state is looking at changing this in light of what has happened.

                  The building was grandfathered in. So, if you guys want ALL buildings such as this to be sprinklered, who will foot the bill to renovate a building such as this? A lot of group homes in missouri are just renovated homes, that have been added on to accomodate more residents.

                  Several years ago I fought a group home fire 2 districts over and it was a renovated house with no sprinkler system, just the regular smoke alarms. Should they have to go through and renovate the house to add a system in? I am curious as to where all the "money" is going to come from to make this happen.

                  The only logical thing I can see is mandate like was earlier mentioned and require all new and soon to be remodeled bulidings do this. Unlike some on here, I welcome opinions and am just adding this information for everyone elses benefit. I for one think they should have a sprinkler system in place but I just don't think it will happen or be something enforced short of legislation.
                  Firefighter/EMT-B
                  IACOJ

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    It is a good idea...

                    Originally posted by mcfd45
                    How about this. Pass the law that all new and to be renovated buildings must be sprinklered. All staff must be trained in fire suppression similar to an industrial brigade but with extinguishers and such. Give a subsidy to any homes that are sprinklered, this encourages the homes to convert.
                    Perhaps it is a good idea but I would like to hhear your ideas about it.
                    J
                    ... and is exactly the sort of policy I have been advocating on this thread. DianeC's post speak to similar proposals.

                    If we could get over the notions that so many have that:

                    1. The expense involved is trivial;
                    or 2. The providers are swimming in money and so expense is no object;
                    or 3. Funding sources should never be considered when safety is at issue;

                    then we might get somewhere on exactly the sort of proposals you and DianeC advocate.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Taking a little side step here because to me, this sidestep is more "telling" than a poll about sprinklers in nursing homes...


                      How many people on this forum are firefighters that have a firehouse with no sprinklers and/or no alarm systems? And yet, what do we preach all the time?


                      Firefighters pushing for laws about sprinklers/alarms in other places while the firefighters themselves don't have such things in their own homes/firestations is a joke.


                      Ok, back to the topic...
                      "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I fimrly believe that all nursing home, group homes, and ANY facility that cares for the elderly and developmentally/mentally disabled should be required to have sprinkler systems, no matter what. All new facilities should be required to have them installed during construction, and all exisiting facilities should be required to be retrofitted for them. NO matter what the size. If we can require that new homes be sprinklered, than we can do the same for these facilities.

                        I was wondering, for the states/localities that require sprinklers for these types of facilities, in addition to the local FD doing their inspection, shouldnt we have the state check for the same thing when they do their inspections as well? I used to work in Nursing Homes, and I know they start shaking when they know it's times for state audits/inspections. Heck, if we can get state to check for that and then report the facility, the places will shape up.
                        All of the above comments are solely mine and not those of anyone else.

                        Nobody is ugly after 2 A.M.

                        Some see the glass as half-empty, some see it as half-full, I just wonder who in the H#$* is drinking my beer!!

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                        • #42
                          The state does check

                          Originally posted by medicchick
                          I fimrly believe that all nursing home, group homes, and ANY facility that cares for the elderly and developmentally/mentally disabled should be required to have sprinkler systems, no matter what. All new facilities should be required to have them installed during construction, and all exisiting facilities should be required to be retrofitted for them. NO matter what the size. If we can require that new homes be sprinklered, than we can do the same for these facilities.

                          I was wondering, for the states/localities that require sprinklers for these types of facilities, in addition to the local FD doing their inspection, shouldnt we have the state check for the same thing when they do their inspections as well? I used to work in Nursing Homes, and I know they start shaking when they know it's times for state audits/inspections. Heck, if we can get state to check for that and then report the facility, the places will shape up.
                          you don't need to tell them to do so. The state licensing authority will conduct inspections to standards which are almost certainly higher than local ordinances.

                          And just to be clear, and not to pick on a newcomer to the thread, I don't think anyone is arguing against sprinklers. We are arguing about whether part of a sprinkler mandate needs to include a funding mechanism to cover or at least defray the cost.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Here's a quick question as I watch the local news (I live less than 30 minutes from this place) and see that it was ruled "Accidental" and likely due to faulty wiring. They're saying the fire started in the attic and smoldered/burned undetected until it burned into the living area.

                            Anyway, the question: Should these (and other) properties be required to have smoke detectors in the attic or other non-living spaces?

                            I know of a number of fires similar to this that burned undetected for quite some time before they were detected (by burning into the living areas). Mostly single family dwellings, but the same can happen in other occupancies, obviously. It's also quite a bit more affordable in the case of this building than installing sprinklers.

                            Here's another one for you: With the fire spreading in the attic, would sprinklers have done anything? I'm picturing the sprinklers slowing the spread of fire in the living area (maybe), but smoke and the impending roof collapse, no.
                            Last edited by Catch22; 11-29-2006, 11:21 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Money schmoney....

                              Anyone who doesn't think that nursing home sprinklers should be mandatory should talk to some of the guys in Hartford, CT who had the misfortune of responding to a nursing home fire about 3 years ago. There were 16 patient deaths in that fire and only luck, and a quick, massive response by fire and EMS prevented many more.

                              The State of Connecticut responded quickly to the problem and mandated sprinklers in all nursing homes. To date, none of the nursing homes in the state have gone out of business because of the mandate, though many have changed hands several times since then.

                              At $3-$5 a square foot, retrofitting a building with sprinklers isn't an outrageously expensive proposition for a facility -- certainly not in comparison to the lives lost, or the cost of the lawsuits that follow a fire in such a facility.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by randsc
                                ...this is an incorrect statement of Flordia law. The requirement for sprinklers is only for facilities licensed since 1996. Facilities licensed before 1996 do not need to be sprinklered, nor do facilities licensed since 1996 that house fewer than eight residents. Gotta love google.
                                Right, I was talking about NOW. BTW, every existing home I have been in has been retrofitted (and I have been in many). Maybe its a local thing.


                                Back to the orignal question. IMHO, all homes, be it full nursing, ACLF, ALF, group home or whatever you want to call it needs sprinklers. And that includes retrofitting existing homes. I dont give a rats *** how much it costs, and NO, the goverment shouldnt pay a dime. You want to open a business, you meet the requirements. Period. Why should I as a tax payer support a private, for profit business?
                                Last edited by Dave1983; 11-30-2006, 11:55 AM.
                                Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                                IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                                "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                                RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                                Success is when skill meets opportunity
                                Failure is when fantasy meets reality

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