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  • Physical test

    Hi would like to know what are the physical test hability's
    to get hired in the major city's,like New-York,Chicago,and
    Boston.
    I'm doing a university work on what are the physical needs
    to become a firefighter.
    I want to know in details, what they do,how much weight to lift...

  • #2
    Google CPAT

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by frankmfd
      Hi would like to know what are the physical test hability's
      to get hired in the major city's,like New-York,Chicago,and
      Boston.
      I'm doing a university work on what are the physical needs
      to become a firefighter.
      I want to know in details, what they do,how much weight to lift...

      See the Lt's remarks above...however the CPAT doesn't even come close to evaulating the physical fitness of canidates and certainly doesn't eliminate those who are physically incapable of performing this job and fail to demonstrate merit for employment as a firefigher.

      You want to know the actuall exams or what it really physically takes to do this job? Unfortunately in today's PC, hold my hand, disparate impact, lowering of standards world we live in...the requirements to perform on this job and the exam which is used to evaulate potential canidates are two completely different things.

      FTM-PTB
      Last edited by FFFRED; 11-09-2006, 05:58 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by FFFRED
        See the Lt's remarks above...however the CPAT doesn't even come close to evaulating the physical fitness of canidates and certainly doesn't eliminate those who are physically incapable of performing this job and fail to demonstrate merit for employment as a firefigher.

        You want to know the actuall exams or what it really physically takes to do this job? Unfortunately in today's PC, hold my hand, disparate impact, lowering of standards world we live in...the requirements to perform on this job and the exam which is used to evaulate potential canidates are two completely different things.

        FTM-PTB
        Purely a question.

        Isnt the CPAT supposed to judge if a person is capable of performing the basic physical demands upon entering the academy? Wouldn't the academy and the individual then be responsible for getting them in shape for the demands of the job? I would think there are minimum standards that the academy has so that they are not having to take slackers and make them into FFs. But isnt that what the PT in the academy is there for?
        Again a question.
        Shawn M. Cecula
        Firefighter
        IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

        Comment


        • #5
          From the IAFF website about the CPAT:
          "The overall consensus found the test to be a good predictor of an applicant’s ability to perform basic fire fighting tasks. The Technical Committee was confident that the ability test would provide the fire service with a physically competent recruit. There was also unanimous agreement that the test equaled or was superior to current test run by each of the ten jurisdictions. "
          Found here: http://www.iaff.org/safe/wellness/cpat.html

          I think the major difference is the physical requirements based on the department you will be employed with. As someone else mentioned on another thread (froget where and who), the demands of a suburban town with the tallest building being 3 stories is much different than mid-town Manhattan or downtown Chicago.

          It goes on to say: "The goal of the CPAT is to test for those individuals physically qualified to perform the job of fire fighter without separating from the department’s broader goal of attaining a properly trained and physically capable workforce whose members reflect the diversity of the community."

          Now I think that statement is mutually exclusive. Do you want a more diverse workforce... or do you want the most physically fit fire fighter you can get?

          Don't try and down play it. Whether you think the CPAT is a fair measure of what it takes to physically be a fire fighter, there are most certainly politics involved that make the test passable so that departments can achieve a more "diverse workforce".

          That said, I, along with everyone here, could not care who is with me in the truck as long as they are capable of doing the job. The real question is does the CPAT weed out the people that are unable to do the job??

          Many people would say no...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lewiston2Capt
            Purely a question.

            Isnt the CPAT supposed to judge if a person is capable of performing the basic physical demands upon entering the academy? Wouldn't the academy and the individual then be responsible for getting them in shape for the demands of the job? I would think there are minimum standards that the academy has so that they are not having to take slackers and make them into FFs. But isnt that what the PT in the academy is there for?
            Again a question.
            And a fair question at that.

            First the CPAT doesn't even begin to test the physical endurance and strength necessary at a job...3 min on a stairmill...perhaps that good enough for where you work but we both know in the most vertical city in the nation stairs and walk ups of 5-8-15 floors aren't uncommon. Our last exam was 5 min 20 seconds and that is more than fair to ask someone to walk for the physical.

            We use an open competitive civil service exam. There is no interview, there is no hiring board picking candidates at random or based on who they are related to or whom they know. You are to be measured as to your merit and fitness for the job and once placed on a list you are hired in that order provided you meet the qualifications and aren't criminal or insane. Open-competitive means everyone is on the same level and has just as much chance at getting a job than the next...all one needs to do is prove in who has the greater merit and fitness for the job to be hired before the next guy in line.

            The written and the physical should determine who can show greater merit and fitness for the job. With the CPAT there will a disproportional amount of persons with 100% passing scores because for example one event carrying a saw 50ft proves nothing in ones ability and fitness for this job. Every member of the FDNY has taken this CPAT since 2000 because NYS requires it...no one has ever failed with the exception of 2 or so persons that I won't get into who they are or if they were allowed to take it again. To a man, everyone on this job, all 11,000 of us will tell you in their personal professional opinion that CPAT exam is an outright joke as a tool to measure ones physical fitness for this job. That much I can assure you. I've known guys who have taken that exam with hangovers (borderline drunk from the night before) in other cities and passed that CPAT. So much for a physical exam.

            Now all this does is place 1000s of candidates at the same level in terms of merit and fitness because under a more rigorous exam some would obviously do better and score closer to 100 and others wouldn't do as well and score 60,70 or 80s. Now this would create a list where those who truly demonstrate their superior preparation, ability and desire for the job will get hired on the top of the list, and those who really could care less about being a firefighter.

            Furthermore public statements from the DCAS commish indicate that they have gone with this CPAT because in other cities many more women have been able to pass the exam using this physical vs. our previous physical exams.

            Now think to yourself what is wrong with this statement...Our current exams apparently in someones opinion eliminate too many women (and obviously many men as well but the don't have a cause or spokesman) but some women do pass the current exam and they are on this job today. If an exam is changed and it allows persons on this job(male or female) who previously were disqualified as unfit for this job to be placed at the top of the list, did they make the exam easier or more difficult? Why would anyone push for lower standards? Shouldn't we be looking for the fittest and the brightest?

            Why are we to look for those with the bare-azz minimum qualifications and lowest merit and fitness for the job and lump them in with those who have studied hard in school, kept in good physical condition in the hopes that they should one day be appointed a New York City Firefighter. We've already established that the CPAT doesn't adequately gauge or measure the minimum standards to do this job. This job shouldn't be treated like a lottery for public housing units.

            We don't want those who barely qualify, we want the best and the brightest we can get from all the candidates who signed up...lowering the standards won't help us achieve that. But I suppose some liberal ideal is more important than having firefighters who are physically capable of doing this job.

            FTM-PTB

            PS-I don't care who they hire, black, yellow, red, woman, man as long as they are the most physcially fit and reasonably intelligent persons on the list...period.
            Last edited by FFFRED; 11-10-2006, 10:45 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by FFFRED
              And a fair question at that.

              First the CPAT doesn't even begin to test the physical endurance and strength necessary at a job...3 min on a stairmill...perhaps that good enough for where you work but we both know in the most vertical city in the nation stairs and walk ups of 5-8-15 floors aren't uncommon. Our last exam was 5 min 20 seconds and that is more than fair to ask someone to walk for the physical.

              We use an open competitive civil service exam. There is no interview, there is no hiring board picking candidates at random or based on who they are related to or whom they know. You are to be measured as to your merit and fitness for the job and once placed on a list you are hired in that order provided you meet the qualifications and aren't criminal or insane. Open-competitive means everyone is on the same level and has just as much chance at getting a job than the next...all one needs to do is prove in who has the greater merit and fitness for the job to be hired before the next guy in line.

              The written and the physical should determine who can show greater merit and fitness for the job. With the CPAT there will a disproportional amount of persons with 100% passing scores because for example one event carrying a saw 50ft proves nothing in ones ability and fitness for this job. Every member of the FDNY has taken this CPAT since 2000 because NYS requires it...no one has ever failed with the exception of 2 or so persons that I won't get into who they are or if they were allowed to take it again. To a man, everyone on this job, all 11,000 of us will tell you in their personal professional opinion that CPAT exam is an outright joke as a tool to measure ones physical fitness for this job. That much I can assure you. I've known guys who have taken that exam with hangovers (borderline drunk from the night before) in other cities and passed that CPAT. So much for a physical exam.

              Now all this does is place 1000s of candidates at the same level in terms of merit and fitness because under a more rigorous exam some would obviously do better and score closer to 100 and others wouldn't do as well and score 60,70 or 80s. Now this would create a list where those who truly demonstrate their superior preparation, ability and desire for the job will get hired on the top of the list, and those who really could care less about being a firefighter.

              Furthermore public statements from the DCAS commish indicate that they have gone with this CPAT because in other cities many more women have been able to pass the exam using this physical vs. our previous physical exams.

              Now think to yourself what is wrong with this statement...Our current exams apparently in someones opinion eliminate too many women (and obviously many men as well but the don't have a cause or spokesman) but some women do pass the current exam and they are on this job today. If an exam is changed and it allows persons on this job(male or female) who previously were disqualified as unfit for this job, did they make the exam easier or more difficult? Why would anyone push for lower standards? Shouldn't we be looking for the fittest and the brightest?

              Why are we to look for those with the bare-azz minimum qualifications and lowest merit and fitness for the job and lump them in with those who have studied hard in school, kept in good physical condition in the hopes that they should one day be appointed a New York City Firefighter. We've already established that the CPAT doesn't adequately gauge or meausre the minimum standards to do this job. This job shouldn't be treated like a lottery for public housing units.

              We don't want those who barely qualify, we want the best and the brightest we can get from all the candidates who signed up...lowering the standards won't help us achieve that. But I suppose some liberal ideal is more important than having firefighters who are physically capable of doing this job.

              FTM-PTB

              PS-I don't care who they hire, black, yellow, red, woman, man as long as they are the most physcially fit and reasonably intelligent persons on the list...period.
              You will get no argument from me on that. I never really looked into what was involved in the CPAT. I know that the BFD exam at one point involved firefighting related actions in the physical. I would prefer to see the best candidate get the job, but unfortunately causes get involved and we are left with what you now see. It isnt right. Only 3 minutes on a stairmill? Are you kidding me? Christ I used to do that to warm up for my workout. I believe that the CPAT should be what I described, a good evaluation of a persons physical ability to complete the most basic portions of the academy until the PT done at the academy can improve the physical condition of the candidate to the point that they need to be to do the job. And may the best candidate win!
              Shawn M. Cecula
              Firefighter
              IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by FFFRED
                See the Lt's remarks above...however the CPAT doesn't even come close to evaulating the physical fitness of canidates and certainly doesn't eliminate those who are physically incapable of performing this job and fail to demonstrate merit for employment as a firefigher.

                You want to know the actuall exams or what it really physically takes to do this job? Unfortunately in today's PC, hold my hand, disparate impact, lowering of standards world we live in...the requirements to perform on this job and the exam which is used to evaulate potential canidates are two completely different things.

                FTM-PTB
                What he said.
                The CPAT is a pass/fail test that sets an arbitrary cutoff time. Someone who completes it in ten minutes gets the same score as someone who completes it in 6 minutes. It is essentially rigged to create a diverse hiring list as opposed to a best qualified hiring list.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Now-a-days it's all arbitrary. The FDNY just changed the physical from points to pass/fail with makes it worse for candidates. But it's done to 'help' minorities and women to get on the job. Really makes no sense.

                  The CPAT is a state qualification test. The FDNY have a test, in the academy called the FST which is much, much harder to do. If you can pass this you'll knock out the CPAT at the end of the academy no problem.

                  Comment

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