Sacred Cows

[FyredUp]

With a few topics over the past few months the idea of sacred cow fire departments that simply can't be questioned unless you are a member of some elite clique has entered my head.

Why has this occurred to me? Well perhaps because I have been questioned attacked and slammed by both big city paid firemen and by vollies on different occasions. Since I am a paid fireman in a medium sized city in Wisconsin I guess I have a perspective on that side and since I am a volly out in a 2 blinker rural town I also have that perspective.

It seems no one dare question a big city fireman unless they are one...on any topic. The same with the vollies. It seems unless you are one of either of these groups you dare not impune them ever by questioning something they do. Frankly, asking a question or trying to debate with someone about what they do that you feel is simply wrong or dangerous always evolves into my Balls are bigger than yours and you never walked in my shoes so WTF do you know about anything.

What's my point? Maybe simply this: Just because any FD does something and has done it for years doesn't make it automatically right or wrong. Just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't make them old fashioned or a stupid wacker from the sticks. Different places do things differently, always have, always will. Every debate or disagreement doesn;t have to become a cyber ****ing match.

Yes I know I have engaged in some ****ing matches in the past. I try very hard to stay away from them now. I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

FyredUp

[E229Lt]

Why has this occurred to me? Well perhaps because I have been questioned attacked and slammed by both big city paid firemen and by vollies on different occasions.

It seems no one dare question a big city fireman unless they are one...on any topic. The same with the vollies.


Yes I know I have engaged in some ****ing matches in the past. I try very hard to stay away from them now. I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

FyredUp

Seems like you're baiting a hook for the very thread you claim to hate

[nyckftbl]

It is very obvious, considering your last few topics that you have posted on, that you are referring to, at least in general, FDs such as FDNY, Chicago, and Boston.
When the members of these depts have to constantly defend why they feel they should wear 3/4s for example, I see (mostly) levelheaded discussion, with very specific and reasonably sound reasons why they feel they that way. But when certain people (NOT you, just certain pot stirrers) attempt to ridicule that opinion by saying we might be too fat for full PPE, or when your best argument against our opinion is that our govt is making us wear it, and implying that our union has more important issues to fight over, the debate is nothing more than, "I dont agree with you, so too bad".

Maybe over the years the brothers from the bigger cities have grown tired of idiots on this site making comments such as "wow, they sure do know how to kill firemen in NYC" and the like, which may cause some of us to be alittle more defensive about us, our operations, and our tactics.

Asking a question about why a big city dept does something differently, is a lot different than implying that something we do is old fashioned, or shouldnt be done anymore because some J/O who has never been to a fire before says we shouldnt.

You have been a member of these forums for a while, I know you have seen the act that certain people have, where they love to criticize a big city dept, at every chance they get. Not one time have I ever read the comment "we do it like this because we are a big city dept, and you dont know any better." I only have read comments such as " It works for us, but just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean you have to agree with it." Thats hardly saying dont criticize or ask questions about what we do, or why we do it, but implying that since these depts have been doing it this way, for longer, we have a little more knowledge on THAT specific subject.

[Jasper 45]

I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

That’s why I always set my goals low … that way, I rarely fail, and on those occasions I do succeed, people are pleasantly surprised.

Those beers await, Brother.
After all, the most sacred cow of them all, is the Spotted Cow.

[NYSmokey]

FyredUp,

I agree with you. There has been way too much BS on the forums in recent weeks so I have been occupying my time elsewhere. I hope it is just me being tired and it has not turned into the waste of time that it has felt like lately. To GET respect you have to GIVE respect from the probie to the chief. We are all in this together. We have enough MUTTS, CHOOLS, or whatever you want to call them trying to knock us down in this world. We don't need to help them out.

It's sad to me that the only time we really band together is when tragedy strikes. Whether it is a big city or small town LODD, brothers will come out of the woodwork to show support. So why do we let ourselves get into such personal ****ing matches on these forums? To ask for total harmony would be unrealistic, but I think it's fair to ask people to THINK before they post.

Years ago I used to fly off the handle on these boards over a certain departed member (LHS RIP) posts and vent my frustrations on here. I learned a lot from a certain big city LT (who will remain nameless) and since then I always type out my responses, read them for a while, and decide whether it's really going to matter the next day. I'd like to think that this method has helped me from looking like a complete jerk more than a few times.

I leave you with this from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: broth·er·hood
Pronunciation: 'br&-[th]&r-"hud
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English brotherhede, brotherhod, alteration of brotherrede, from Old English brOthorr[AE]den, from brOthor + r[AE]den condition -- more at KINDRED
1 : the quality or state of being brothers
2 : FELLOWSHIP, ALLIANCE
3 : an association (as a labor union or monastic society) for a particular purpose
4 : the whole body of persons engaged in a business or profession

[NJFFSA16]

This brother got REAL tired of all the BS arguments here...and left the forums for quite a few months. I don't mind disagreements...but the language needs to be civil in tone.

Otherwise...yes, it becomes a ****ing match with nothing learned, nothing gained.

[k3twpfire]

. . . and the purpose of this thread?

[RspctFrmCalgary]

This brother got REAL tired of all the BS arguments here...and left the forums for quite a few months. I don't mind disagreements...but the language needs to be civil in tone.

Otherwise...yes, it becomes a ****ing match with nothing learned, nothing gained.

Well, maybe you need to post "over there" more often then!

[medicmaster]

It is very obvious, considering your last few topics that you have posted on, that you are referring to, at least in general, FDs such as FDNY, Chicago, and Boston.
When the members of these depts have to constantly defend why they feel they should wear 3/4s for example, I see (mostly) levelheaded discussion, with very specific and reasonably sound reasons why they feel they that way. But when certain people (NOT you, just certain pot stirrers) attempt to ridicule that opinion by saying we might be too fat for full PPE, or when your best argument against our opinion is that our govt is making us wear it, and implying that our union has more important issues to fight over, the debate is nothing more than, "I dont agree with you, so too bad".

Maybe over the years the brothers from the bigger cities have grown tired of idiots on this site making comments such as "wow, they sure do know how to kill firemen in NYC" and the like, which may cause some of us to be alittle more defensive about us, our operations, and our tactics.

Asking a question about why a big city dept does something differently, is a lot different than implying that something we do is old fashioned, or shouldnt be done anymore because some J/O who has never been to a fire before says we shouldnt.

You have been a member of these forums for a while, I know you have seen the act that certain people have, where they love to criticize a big city dept, at every chance they get. Not one time have I ever read the comment "we do it like this because we are a big city dept, and you dont know any better." I only have read comments such as " It works for us, but just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean you have to agree with it." Thats hardly saying dont criticize or ask questions about what we do, or why we do it, but implying that since these depts have been doing it this way, for longer, we have a little more knowledge on THAT specific subject.

I think it is comments like this that are exactly his point...

Someone has a difference of opinion...enters the debate civilly, then their comments are taken out of context and they get bashed back into the stone age. In the issue of the turnout gear thread, it degraded to the point of literally "my balls are bigger than yours". When you state your opinion, and clearly indicate that it is your opinion and argue for it, however remain open minded enough to say "if works for you, great" and then get attacked because of your chosen profession, or because you don't come from a big enough department...that is exactly what that is.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Sacred Cows?

Is this thread about the late Harry Caray, the Chicago Cub's announcer ( who used the words "holy cow" instead of saying one of the seven words you can't say on the radio or television. lest invoke the wrath of the FCC) or the Hindu religion?

[FlyingKiwi]

Dont like Holy Cow.

STEAK on the BBQ

NOW we are talking.

[LuckyThirteen]

Is this thread about the late Harry Caray, the Chicago Cub's announcer ( who used the words "holy cow" instead of saying one of the seven words you can't say on the radio or television. lest invoke the wrath of the FCC) or the Hindu religion?

[RspctFrmCalgary]

I thought all cows would be sacred to you guys ... who love your leather lids, that is!

[nyckftbl]

I think it is comments like this that are exactly his point...

Someone has a difference of opinion...enters the debate civilly, then their comments are taken out of context and they get bashed back into the stone age. In the issue of the turnout gear thread, it degraded to the point of literally "my balls are bigger than yours". When you state your opinion, and clearly indicate that it is your opinion and argue for it, however remain open minded enough to say "if works for you, great" and then get attacked because of your chosen profession, or because you don't come from a big enough department...that is exactly what that is.

Where exactly in my post do I take his comments out of context? or bash him into the stone age? I went out of my way to make sure he knew I wasnt bashing him, or his way of thinking. Stop stirring the pot.

[Dickey]

You can have the leather, I want the steaks!!!

I agree. Why are we "one family" in a time of tragedy?

Seriously, sometimes the "big city" guys get a puffy chest because they are the big city guys. Sometimes the "vollies" or the "small town guys" or the "career" guys get puffy chested about stuff too.

Listen, we all get a little puffy chested and big headed about stuff we feel strongly about sometimes. To be honest, the fire doesn't change, the way we put it out doesn't change, the danger doesn't change. This means that we are all equals when you get down to the meat of things( sorry bout the pun). There are always going to little squabbles and disagreements about stuff and there are always going to be people you just don't get along with. That's life. You are just going to agree to disagree and move on.

When you take an attitude that is less than professional, or even dishonorable, that is the true disappointment. We have to remember, if we don't support ourselves, who will?

Ok kids.........fight nice now.