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  • Sacred Cows

    With a few topics over the past few months the idea of sacred cow fire departments that simply can't be questioned unless you are a member of some elite clique has entered my head.

    Why has this occurred to me? Well perhaps because I have been questioned attacked and slammed by both big city paid firemen and by vollies on different occasions. Since I am a paid fireman in a medium sized city in Wisconsin I guess I have a perspective on that side and since I am a volly out in a 2 blinker rural town I also have that perspective.

    It seems no one dare question a big city fireman unless they are one...on any topic. The same with the vollies. It seems unless you are one of either of these groups you dare not impune them ever by questioning something they do. Frankly, asking a question or trying to debate with someone about what they do that you feel is simply wrong or dangerous always evolves into my Balls are bigger than yours and you never walked in my shoes so WTF do you know about anything.

    What's my point? Maybe simply this: Just because any FD does something and has done it for years doesn't make it automatically right or wrong. Just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't make them old fashioned or a stupid wacker from the sticks. Different places do things differently, always have, always will. Every debate or disagreement doesn;t have to become a cyber ****ing match.

    Yes I know I have engaged in some ****ing matches in the past. I try very hard to stay away from them now. I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

    FyredUp
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  • #2
    Originally posted by FyredUp
    Why has this occurred to me? Well perhaps because I have been questioned attacked and slammed by both big city paid firemen and by vollies on different occasions.

    It seems no one dare question a big city fireman unless they are one...on any topic. The same with the vollies.


    Yes I know I have engaged in some ****ing matches in the past. I try very hard to stay away from them now. I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

    FyredUp
    Seems like you're baiting a hook for the very thread you claim to hate

    Comment


    • #3
      It is very obvious, considering your last few topics that you have posted on, that you are referring to, at least in general, FDs such as FDNY, Chicago, and Boston.
      When the members of these depts have to constantly defend why they feel they should wear 3/4s for example, I see (mostly) levelheaded discussion, with very specific and reasonably sound reasons why they feel they that way. But when certain people (NOT you, just certain pot stirrers) attempt to ridicule that opinion by saying we might be too fat for full PPE, or when your best argument against our opinion is that our govt is making us wear it, and implying that our union has more important issues to fight over, the debate is nothing more than, "I dont agree with you, so too bad".

      Maybe over the years the brothers from the bigger cities have grown tired of idiots on this site making comments such as "wow, they sure do know how to kill firemen in NYC" and the like, which may cause some of us to be alittle more defensive about us, our operations, and our tactics.

      Asking a question about why a big city dept does something differently, is a lot different than implying that something we do is old fashioned, or shouldnt be done anymore because some J/O who has never been to a fire before says we shouldnt.

      You have been a member of these forums for a while, I know you have seen the act that certain people have, where they love to criticize a big city dept, at every chance they get. Not one time have I ever read the comment "we do it like this because we are a big city dept, and you dont know any better." I only have read comments such as " It works for us, but just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean you have to agree with it." Thats hardly saying dont criticize or ask questions about what we do, or why we do it, but implying that since these depts have been doing it this way, for longer, we have a little more knowledge on THAT specific subject.
      Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

      Comment


      • #4
        I will succeed at times and I will fail at times.

        That’s why I always set my goals low … that way, I rarely fail, and on those occasions I do succeed, people are pleasantly surprised.

        Those beers await, Brother.
        After all, the most sacred cow of them all, is the Spotted Cow.
        Last edited by jasper45; 10-28-2006, 06:55 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          FyredUp,

          I agree with you. There has been way too much BS on the forums in recent weeks so I have been occupying my time elsewhere. I hope it is just me being tired and it has not turned into the waste of time that it has felt like lately. To GET respect you have to GIVE respect from the probie to the chief. We are all in this together. We have enough MUTTS, CHOOLS, or whatever you want to call them trying to knock us down in this world. We don't need to help them out.

          It's sad to me that the only time we really band together is when tragedy strikes. Whether it is a big city or small town LODD, brothers will come out of the woodwork to show support. So why do we let ourselves get into such personal ****ing matches on these forums? To ask for total harmony would be unrealistic, but I think it's fair to ask people to THINK before they post.

          Years ago I used to fly off the handle on these boards over a certain departed member (LHS RIP) posts and vent my frustrations on here. I learned a lot from a certain big city LT (who will remain nameless) and since then I always type out my responses, read them for a while, and decide whether it's really going to matter the next day. I'd like to think that this method has helped me from looking like a complete jerk more than a few times.

          I leave you with this from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

          Main Entry: broth·er·hood
          Pronunciation: 'br&-[th]&r-"hud
          Function: noun
          Etymology: Middle English brotherhede, brotherhod, alteration of brotherrede, from Old English brOthorr[AE]den, from brOthor + r[AE]den condition -- more at KINDRED
          1 : the quality or state of being brothers
          2 : FELLOWSHIP, ALLIANCE
          3 : an association (as a labor union or monastic society) for a particular purpose
          4 : the whole body of persons engaged in a business or profession
          Tom

          Never Forget 9-11-2001

          Stay safe out there!

          IACOJ Member

          Comment


          • #6
            This brother got REAL tired of all the BS arguments here...and left the forums for quite a few months. I don't mind disagreements...but the language needs to be civil in tone.

            Otherwise...yes, it becomes a ****ing match with nothing learned, nothing gained.
            Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
            Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

            *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
            On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

            Comment


            • #7
              . . . and the purpose of this thread?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NJFFSA16
                This brother got REAL tired of all the BS arguments here...and left the forums for quite a few months. I don't mind disagreements...but the language needs to be civil in tone.

                Otherwise...yes, it becomes a ****ing match with nothing learned, nothing gained.

                Well, maybe you need to post "over there" more often then!
                September 11th - Never Forget

                I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

                Sheri
                IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
                Honorary Flatlander

                RAY WAS HERE FIRST

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nyckftbl
                  It is very obvious, considering your last few topics that you have posted on, that you are referring to, at least in general, FDs such as FDNY, Chicago, and Boston.
                  When the members of these depts have to constantly defend why they feel they should wear 3/4s for example, I see (mostly) levelheaded discussion, with very specific and reasonably sound reasons why they feel they that way. But when certain people (NOT you, just certain pot stirrers) attempt to ridicule that opinion by saying we might be too fat for full PPE, or when your best argument against our opinion is that our govt is making us wear it, and implying that our union has more important issues to fight over, the debate is nothing more than, "I dont agree with you, so too bad".

                  Maybe over the years the brothers from the bigger cities have grown tired of idiots on this site making comments such as "wow, they sure do know how to kill firemen in NYC" and the like, which may cause some of us to be alittle more defensive about us, our operations, and our tactics.

                  Asking a question about why a big city dept does something differently, is a lot different than implying that something we do is old fashioned, or shouldnt be done anymore because some J/O who has never been to a fire before says we shouldnt.

                  You have been a member of these forums for a while, I know you have seen the act that certain people have, where they love to criticize a big city dept, at every chance they get. Not one time have I ever read the comment "we do it like this because we are a big city dept, and you dont know any better." I only have read comments such as " It works for us, but just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean you have to agree with it." Thats hardly saying dont criticize or ask questions about what we do, or why we do it, but implying that since these depts have been doing it this way, for longer, we have a little more knowledge on THAT specific subject.
                  I think it is comments like this that are exactly his point...

                  Someone has a difference of opinion...enters the debate civilly, then their comments are taken out of context and they get bashed back into the stone age. In the issue of the turnout gear thread, it degraded to the point of literally "my balls are bigger than yours". When you state your opinion, and clearly indicate that it is your opinion and argue for it, however remain open minded enough to say "if works for you, great" and then get attacked because of your chosen profession, or because you don't come from a big enough department...that is exactly what that is.
                  Jack of all trades, master of none.

                  Live Green, Go Yellow!

                  Join the forums at www.ambulass.com!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sacred Cows?

                    Is this thread about the late Harry Caray, the Chicago Cub's announcer ( who used the words "holy cow" instead of saying one of the seven words you can't say on the radio or television. lest invoke the wrath of the FCC) or the Hindu religion?
                    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dont like Holy Cow.

                      STEAK on the BBQ

                      NOW we are talking.
                      Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
                      Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
                        Is this thread about the late Harry Caray, the Chicago Cub's announcer ( who used the words "holy cow" instead of saying one of the seven words you can't say on the radio or television. lest invoke the wrath of the FCC) or the Hindu religion?
                        Tom Warshaw
                        Station 13 (Bethel)
                        Sumter Fire Department

                        "Scientists believe that the world is composed mainly of hydrogen because in their opinion, it is the most abundant element. I however, feel the earth is composed mainly of stupidity, because it is more abundant than hydrogen." - Frank Zappa

                        September 11, 2001. We Must Never Forget.

                        In memory of Thomas Sabella, L-13, FDNY


                        All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my department or any organization I may belong to.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I thought all cows would be sacred to you guys ... who love your leather lids, that is!
                          September 11th - Never Forget

                          I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

                          Sheri
                          IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
                          Honorary Flatlander

                          RAY WAS HERE FIRST

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by medicmaster
                            I think it is comments like this that are exactly his point...

                            Someone has a difference of opinion...enters the debate civilly, then their comments are taken out of context and they get bashed back into the stone age. In the issue of the turnout gear thread, it degraded to the point of literally "my balls are bigger than yours". When you state your opinion, and clearly indicate that it is your opinion and argue for it, however remain open minded enough to say "if works for you, great" and then get attacked because of your chosen profession, or because you don't come from a big enough department...that is exactly what that is.

                            Where exactly in my post do I take his comments out of context? or bash him into the stone age? I went out of my way to make sure he knew I wasnt bashing him, or his way of thinking. Stop stirring the pot.
                            Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You can have the leather, I want the steaks!!!

                              I agree. Why are we "one family" in a time of tragedy?

                              Seriously, sometimes the "big city" guys get a puffy chest because they are the big city guys. Sometimes the "vollies" or the "small town guys" or the "career" guys get puffy chested about stuff too.

                              Listen, we all get a little puffy chested and big headed about stuff we feel strongly about sometimes. To be honest, the fire doesn't change, the way we put it out doesn't change, the danger doesn't change. This means that we are all equals when you get down to the meat of things( sorry bout the pun). There are always going to little squabbles and disagreements about stuff and there are always going to be people you just don't get along with. That's life. You are just going to agree to disagree and move on.

                              When you take an attitude that is less than professional, or even dishonorable, that is the true disappointment. We have to remember, if we don't support ourselves, who will?

                              Ok kids.........fight nice now.
                              Jason Knecht
                              Firefighter/EMT
                              Township Fire Dept., Inc.
                              Eau Claire, WI

                              IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
                              http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
                              EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

                              Comment

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