Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

News: Aircraft crashes into NYC bldg

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by E229Lt
    Seeing as this corridor ends at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island (where the plane turned) to avoid LAG airspace, couldn't a poorly executed turn cause an a/c to approach stall speed and then attempt manuevers to regain speed, which could be construed as "acrobatics" to the layman?

    With the winds recorded at ENE, 10 knots and the turn being made as a jibe as opposed to a tack (sorry, I know nautical terms) cause the plane to lose some lift?



    [/I]

    BY PETE DONOHUE
    DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

    Cory Lidle's doomed plane was traveling at a slow speed - and likely in danger of stalling - before he and his flight instructor attempted the dangerous U-turn over the East River, a former National Transportation Safety Board official said yesterday.
    Radar data indicate Lidle's plane was traveling at 112 mph as it headed north above the East River. The aircraft then banked left, dropped 200 feet and slammed into a high-rise.

    "That's going to be damn close to the stall speed," former NTSB member John Goglia said of the 112-mph velocity.

    One indication that a plane has stalled is that it loses altitude, usually with one wing turning downward first, then the other dropping, creating a side-to-side spiral-like motion.

    NTSB officials said Lidle's plane dropped from 700 feet to 500 feet shortly before crashing Wednesday. Some witnesses said they initially thought the pilot was doing acrobatic or trick maneuvers.
    Well, well, well
    Last edited by E229Lt; 10-14-2006, 08:23 AM.

    Comment


    • In reference to the airspace around LaGuardia Airport...


      Picture a wedding cake... lagre on the bottom. small on the top.

      Now invert it. The small area would be directly over the airport, the upper tiers would be the areas surrounding the airport.

      LaGuardia is class B airspace, but because of it's location has different altitudes for each "layer" of the "cake"

      Here is a picture depicting the various airspaces...



      Here are the definitions..

      CLASS A Airspace

      Class A Airspace is the airspace from FL 180 or 18,000 feet to FL 600 or 60,000. All pilots flying in Class A airspace shall file an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan and receive an appropriate air traffic control (ATC) clearance. When climbing through 18,000 feet, the pilot will change the altimeter setting from the local altimeter (30.01 for example) to 29.92. This ensures all aircraft flying in class A airspace have the same altimeter setting and will have proper altitude separation. This is the "autobahn" of the skies... where the commercial airliners are found.

      CLASS B Airspace

      Class B Airspace is generally the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet. This airspace is normally around the busiest airports in terms of aircraft traffic such as Chicago or Los Angeles. Class B airspace is individually designed to meet the needs of the particular airport and consists of a surface area and two more layers. Most Class B airspace resemble an upside down wedding cake. Pilots must contact air traffic control to receive an air traffic control clearance to enter Class B airspace. Once a pilot receives an air traffic control clearance, they receive separation services from other aircraft within the airspace.

      CLASS C Airspace

      Class C Airspace is the airspace from the surface to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation. Class C airspace will only be found at airports that have an operational control tower, are serviced by a radar approach control, and that have a certain number of IFR operations. Although Class C airspace is individually tailored to meet the needs of the airport, the airspace usually consists of a surface area with a 5 nautical mile (NM) radius, an outer circle with a 10 NM radius that extends from 1,200 feet to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation and an outer area. Pilots must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic control services prior to entering airspace. Pilots of visual flight rules (VFR) aircraft are separated from pilots of instrument flight rules (IFR) aircraft only. Anchorage International airport, located in Anchorage, Alaska, has a Class C airspace.

      CLASS D Airspace

      The fourth airspace is Class D Airspace which is generally that airspace from the surface to 2,500 feet above the airport elevation. Class D airspace only surrounds airports that have an operational control tower. Class D airspace is also tailored to meet the needs of the airport. Pilots are required to establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic control services prior to entering the airspace. No separation services will be provided to pilots of VFR (Visual Flight Rules) aircraft. Pilots operating under VFR must still use "see-and-avoid" for aircraft separation. Airports without operating control towers are uncontrolled airfields. Here pilots are responsible for their own separation and takeoff and landings. Uncontrolled airports use a "UNICOM" frequency that pilots will transmit their intentions to other aircraft using the airport. EXAMPLE: "CESSNA 1870 VICTOR (the aircraft's callsign) DEPARTING UNION CITY (the uncontrolled airport) RUNWAY 17 (the pilot's intentions).

      CLASS E Airspace

      The fifth airspace to discuss is Class E Airspace which is generally that airspace that is not Class A, B, C, or D. Class E airspace extends upward from either the surface or a designated altitude to the overlying or adjacent controlled airspace. If an aircraft is flying on a Federal airway below 18,000 feet, it is in Class E airspace. Class E airspace is also the airspace used by aircraft transiting to and from the terminal or en route environment normally beginning at 14,500 feet to 18,000 feet. Class E airspace ensures IFR aircraft remain in controlled airspace when approaching aircraft without Class D airspace or when flying on "Victor airways" -- federal airways that are below 18,000 feet. NOTE: VFR aircraft can fly up to 17,500 feet IF they can maintain VFR weather clearance criteria (and the aircraft is equipped to fly at 17,500 feet).

      CLASS G Airspace

      Class G Airspace is uncontrolled airspace. IFR aircraft will not operate in Class G airspace. VFR aircraft can operate in Class G airspace. It is the equivalent of a dirt road in the sky.

      Information about the types of airspace around an airport are found on the sectional charts, similar to a roadmap, but with a lot more information
      (location of airports and their radio frequencies and VORS, military training aeas, location of TV and radio towers, height of hills and mountains, etc.) that can change on a daily basis with temporary flight restrictions (TFR's), severe weather, etc.

      For example, let's use Kennebunkport, Maine. There is a permanent flight restriction over Walker's Point, the summer home of Bush 41 accorded to him by his status as a former President. When Bush 43 visited there this summer, a TFR was instituted, shutting down all general aviation traffic within a 36 mile area surrounding Kennebunkport. The only aircraft allowed to fly over a TFR area are commercial flights, military aircraft and and medical helos, which have to file specific flight plans in order to fly through the TFR area. Any deviation from the flight plan, you will have a "friendly and heavily armed" F-16 or F-15 fighter escort bringing you to nearest airport capable of handling the aircraft. They can be very "persuasive"
      Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 10-14-2006, 09:24 AM.
      ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
      Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

      Comment


      • BY PETE DONOHUE

        "That's going to be damn close to the stall speed," former NTSB member John Goglia said of the 112-mph velocity.
        It's possible that the Cirrus stalled during the U-Turn. Load factor increases exponentially as the angle of bank increases, especially past 60 degrees, which in turn increases the stalling speed.

        However, 112 Knots is nearly twice what the normal stall speed is for a single-engine aircaft such as this. This would mean that the U-Turn would have to have been something like a 90 degree banking turn.

        This is not impossible, and the NTSB database is ripe with stall-spin accidents that are strikingly similar to this type of maneuver, usually when turning final for landing or trying to turn back to the airport after departing and losing your engine.

        If my memory serves, the Cirrus was not certified for spins (hence why it was a pioneer in the whole-plane parachute system).

        Obviously none of us are going to know what really happened until the NTSB comes back. I'm curious if the engine was producing power at the time of the accident.

        We'll see.
        Last edited by grains; 10-14-2006, 11:04 AM.
        What if the hokey pokey IS what it's all about?

        Apparatus Operator
        Salem Fire Department
        IAFF Local 314

        Comment


        • That news media report is comical. 112mph is almost twice the stalling speed and is perfectly normal for the turn he made there. For gods sake, the steep turn manever where you bank the plane in excess of 45 degrees is done at that exact speed and you do two complete 360 degree turns in the process. In fact, it is a very normal speed for ANY maneuvers. An accident like this does not happen from makin a standard U-Turn. These morons running their mouths on the media don't know what they are talking about and this is a perfect example.
          Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

          Comment


          • Here's a thought for NM, Gonzo, and the rest of the pilots here from an non-pilot airplane nut.

            What about a tip stall? Wouldn't that explain the witness accounts of the aircraft suddenly rolling and diving to one side while in a turn even though it otherwise appeared to be well above stall speed?

            I'm posting merely for the sake of discussion. The NTSB will figure it all out, their investigations are [u]amazing[u].

            Comment


            • Do you think someone is trying to tell her something?

              New York Daily News - http://www.nydailynews.com
              2nd bolt from blue
              BY RICH SCHAPIRO
              DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
              Friday, October 13th, 2006

              Cory Lidle's doomed plane didn't just crash into anybody's apartment.
              It exploded into the empty bedroom of Kathleen Caronna, the Manhattan woman who was critically injured when a balloon knocked part of a lamppost onto her head during the 1997 Thanksgiving Day Parade.


              The plane's engine was found only feet away from where Caronna sleeps, her relatives told the Daily News yesterday.

              "She lost her whole bedroom," said a family member, who asked not to be identified. "Everything's devastated. ... She's got nowhere to go."

              Caronna was on her way home Wednesday when the plane crashed into the Belaire at 2:42p.m. She was extremely shaken after the disaster, telling loved ones she would have been home if the plane had crashed only a few minutes later.

              Her sister-in-law, Lisa Brown, 43, called Caronna's situation "unbelievable."

              "How do you go through two major things like this?" Brown asked. "It's spooky. It's very spooky."

              Caronna was a 33-year-old investment analyst in 1997 when she was critically injured at the Thanksgiving Day parade.

              She was watching the festivities with her husband and 7-month-old son at 72nd St. and Central Park West when handlers lost control of the six-story-high Cat in the Hat balloon.

              A section of a streetlight weighing several hundred pounds fell and hit Caronna on the head. Her skull was fractured, and she spent 24 days in a coma before waking up. She later sued Macy's and the city for $395 million, but settled for an undisclosed amount in 2001.

              Yesterday, investigators escorted Caronna into her charred apartment to survey the damage, her relatives said.

              She has been living in the high-rise with her husband, Ignazio Massimo, and their 9-year-old son, Alessandro.

              "This is a tough time for us, and I can't really talk now," her husband said yesterday.

              Caronna's mother, Helen Brown, said her daughter's apartment is unlivable. The bedroom went up in flames. Asked about her daughter, Brown said, "She's fine."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by EFD840
                Here's a thought for NM, Gonzo, and the rest of the pilots here from an non-pilot airplane nut.

                What about a tip stall? Wouldn't that explain the witness accounts of the aircraft suddenly rolling and diving to one side while in a turn even though it otherwise appeared to be well above stall speed?

                I'm posting merely for the sake of discussion. The NTSB will figure it all out, their investigations are [u]amazing[u].
                OK, just to clarify a couple of things on stalls:

                1. A plane can stall at any airspeed. It is the angle of attack between the wing and relative wind that is important. All aircraft will have a critical angle of attack, exceeding that angle will cause a wing to stall, regardless of airspeed.

                2. When a plane stalls, usually one wing will lose its lift first. The other wing that is still producing lift will roll the plane toward the stalled wing, which can then lead to a spin. So, if you enter a stall, and let's say the left wing stalls first, you will experience a roll toward the left side of the aircraft, which looks like a dive to one side, not unlike what you mentioned earlier.

                Now, recovery from a stall is really very simple. In most aircraft just letting go of the controls will most often return the plane to normal flying - not always, but in many cases.

                Other aircraft require the pilot to follow the stall recovery procedure, which everyone is trained on, which is to reduce the back pressure on the control yoke, add opposite rudder if necessary, neutralize the ailerons (control yoke centered left and right), and add power. Do this and you'll fly out of the stall. Pilots train for this all the time when they are working on their pilot certificate.

                Where pilots get into trouble is when they experience a spin for the first time. A spin is one of those basic aerobatic maneuvers that unfortunately nobody except flight instructors are required to demonstrate anymore. If a stall is not corrected, it can lead to a spin.

                In a spin the visual over the nose of the aircraft can give the appearance that one is pointed vertically nose down toward the ground. This is actually not the case, but it can look that way.

                What happens with some of these pilots is that they see the ground and instinctively they pull the control yoke back toward them in a futile attempt to raise the nose of the aircraft. This of course is the exact opposite of what you want to do because it only deepens the stall that you're already in.

                As I stated earlier, you need to reduce the back pressure, and in some cases even apply forward pressure, on the control yoke, along with applying full opposite rudder pressure.

                It's unfortunate that spins are no longer in the Private Pilot syllabus, as they are fun to do and easy to correct for.

                Note: This is a discussion on stall/spins in general. It has no bearing on the recent crash of the Cirrus plane in NY. The NTSB will have to determine what happened.
                Last edited by grains; 10-14-2006, 07:37 PM.
                What if the hokey pokey IS what it's all about?

                Apparatus Operator
                Salem Fire Department
                IAFF Local 314

                Comment


                • Actually grain, if you think about it, it is very relevent (great description btw). It shows the non-flying public how planes don't just stall and fall out of the sky, diving uncontrollably into a building.

                  This incident occured in a straight part of the cooridor, after the U-Turn was completed. He was going 112mph and in a decent. That is not a stall condition. If he did happen to stall and then for some unknown reason not recover (all of which takes about 4 seconds to do), he would have been dropping like a rock in a spin, not in a left turning fast decent into a building.

                  What I'm trying to get at here is that what happened up there was not a simple stall of any kind. I don't think it was stalled at all during this crash.

                  While obviously this isn't what actually took place, it is almost like it was done on purpose. That is how little sense it makes. I can not think of any reasonable failure (both human or mechanical) that would make this happen.
                  Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by nmfire
                    ... he would have been dropping like a rock in a spin, not in a left turning fast decent into a building.
                    Just to clarify a little, cuz I don't think I described it well, in a spin the aircraft will be turning rapidly. This will occur around the aircraft's center of gravity, and will be in the direction of the wing which is more stalled than the other.

                    Incipient spins at relatively low altitudes (less than 1000' above ground level) are difficult to recover from because you simply do not have enough altitude to complete the maneuver before you auger into the ground (or other fixed object).

                    I'm witholding judgement until the NTSB rules. I don't necesarily buy into the intentional crash scenario, especially with an instructor on board.

                    From the views I was seeing from the helicopter footage, it looked like visibility was not all that great, and the ceilings were marginally low. That area apparently has a tight VFR coridor, and if the pilot(s) were not familiar with the terrain, then they easily could lose their situational awareness.

                    If I were a betting man (and I'm not) I'd say they were a little lost. Both of them were probably looking at the Terminal chart and nobody was actually flying the airplane. They became disoriented, saw the building coming up - fast, tried to evade it, but it was too late.

                    There will be lessons to be learned, and some will pay attention.

                    Clear skies!
                    What if the hokey pokey IS what it's all about?

                    Apparatus Operator
                    Salem Fire Department
                    IAFF Local 314

                    Comment


                    • We are all just speculating for now untill the report comes out. Lets just say it could have been as simple as a plane malfunction for all we know.
                      ******=================
                      ******================
                      ******=================
                      ******================
                      =======================
                      =======================
                      =======================

                      ------GOD BLESS AMERICA ! ------

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BFDNJFF
                        We are all just speculating for now untill the report comes out. Lets just say it could have been as simple as a plane malfunction for all we know.
                        Yup, you're exactly right. The NTSB guys are pretty good at figuring these things out. We'll just have to be patient and wait.
                        What if the hokey pokey IS what it's all about?

                        Apparatus Operator
                        Salem Fire Department
                        IAFF Local 314

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by grains
                          Just to clarify a little, cuz I don't think I described it well, in a spin the aircraft will be turning rapidly. This will occur around the aircraft's center of gravity, and will be in the direction of the wing which is more stalled than the other.

                          Incipient spins at relatively low altitudes (less than 1000' above ground level) are difficult to recover from because you simply do not have enough altitude to complete the maneuver before you auger into the ground (or other fixed object).

                          I'm witholding judgement until the NTSB rules. I don't necesarily buy into the intentional crash scenario, especially with an instructor on board.

                          From the views I was seeing from the helicopter footage, it looked like visibility was not all that great, and the ceilings were marginally low. That area apparently has a tight VFR coridor, and if the pilot(s) were not familiar with the terrain, then they easily could lose their situational awareness.

                          If I were a betting man (and I'm not) I'd say they were a little lost. Both of them were probably looking at the Terminal chart and nobody was actually flying the airplane. They became disoriented, saw the building coming up - fast, tried to evade it, but it was too late.

                          There will be lessons to be learned, and some will pay attention.

                          Clear skies!
                          Yep. BTW, my "intentional" thing was not to imply that it was an intentional act. It was just to show how much this accident doesn't make any sense. I definately agree that it was most likely a total loss of situational awareness, but then you have to figure that they BOTH lost it? It is just nuts.
                          Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

                          Comment


                          • ...........................................
                            Attached Files
                            ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
                            NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
                            343
                            CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
                            LT. John Ginley Engine 40
                            FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
                            FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
                            FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
                            FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
                            FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
                            FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
                            FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
                            FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
                            FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

                            Charleston 9
                            "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
                            *******************CLICK HERE*****************

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by nmfire
                              This is a video I made of coming into Block Island last weekend. My friend is the PIC since he has his license already and our other friend is in the back seat. I added some commericial airliner sound effects for comical value. It was windy as all hell!!
                              Nice video, I loved the Airplane! sound bites.
                              You might find this web site interesting:
                              Aircraft landing

                              It is a side-by-side comparison of a real plane landing and the same type landing in Microsoft Flight Simulator X.
                              -------------------
                              "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
                              -----------------------------------------------
                              Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

                              Comment


                              • The latest....

                                Looks like investigators are leaning towards the pilot being unfamiliar with te area and a crosswind.
                                ---------

                                Lidle's plane encountered unexpected crosswind

                                Del Quentin Wilber
                                Washington Post
                                Oct. 18, 2006 04:36 PM


                                WASHINGTON - New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle and his flight instructor apparently did not anticipate the strength of a crosswind when they turned left, a fatal error that allowed their plane to stray near tall buildings and crash into a condominium tower, according to sources familiar with the investigation into the accident.

                                The preliminary analysis is the closest authorities have come to determining why Lidle and his friend and instructor, Tyler Stanger, crashed into a building Oct. 11 during a sightseeing excursion up the narrow East River corridor in New York. Both men died in the crash.

                                So far, investigators with the National Transportation Safety Board have found no mechanical defects in Lidle's plane, a Cirrus SR20 single-engine propeller aircraft that the relief pitcher owned, according to three sources who are not authorized to speak about the accident.

                                It is not known whether Lidle, 34, a relatively new pilot, or 26-year-old Stanger was at the controls.

                                The plane was cruising north at 112 mph along the East River on an overcast day when the pilots began to make a U-turn near 70th Street to head back down the channel, which is about 2,100 feet wide at that point.

                                As the pilots began to turn, they picked up a tail wind out of the east of about 15 mph. That wind increased the speed of the plane and pushed it several hundred feet closer to the shore and the city's skyline, according to the sources.

                                The pilots began their turn near the center of the channel - not the far east side of the river where they should have to compensate for the stiff wind, according to radar data, the sources said. That decision cut their turning radius by several hundred feet.

                                The plane then flew over the west bank of the river and crashed into the 40th floor of a condo tower - about 500 feet above the ground.

                                Outside experts said that the analysis appeared to be a solid explanation for the crash, especially if investigators find nothing wrong with the Cirrus. They also noted that the pilots were unfamiliar with that challenging airspace. Lidle only recently got his license, and his instructor had done most of his flying in California.

                                "They essentially flew into the East Coast version of a blind canyon," said Bruce Landsberg, executive director of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association's Air Safety Foundation. "Halfway into the turn, they probably realized that the buildings were a lot closer than they thought."

                                Sources differ on what happened in the seconds before the crash. Some investigators think the pilots realized they had not turned steeply enough to avoid the buildings and jerked the plane into a sharp bank, stalling the aircraft, which then hurtled out of control into the building. Radar data indicate that the plane dropped about 200 feet in just a few seconds before the crash - evidence of a stall, the sources said.

                                Another theory is that the pilots realized what had happened, managed to dodge one building and then slammed into the condo tower because they had nowhere else to turn.

                                The sources said NTSB investigators need to tweak the radar data from several sites before drawing any firm conclusions. Investigators are also trying to recover data from the aircraft's computerized instruments and a hand-held GPS device. Investigators may never know what occurred in the last seconds of the flight because small aircraft do not have the "black boxes" that collect detailed flight data.
                                Warm Regards,
                                Shawn Stoner
                                EMT-B

                                Comment

                                300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                                Collapse

                                Upper 300x250

                                Collapse

                                Taboola

                                Collapse

                                Leader

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X