Contaminated Water

[emsrbell]

I will keep this short and to the point. We are a small rual fire department that at times refill our trucks with untreated water from river's and ponds. Our Municipality has a concern that there could be a back flow issue when we connect to a hydrant, thus contaminating our treated Municipal water system. Has anyone come across this? I do not see this as an issue since we always use soft hose and turn off hydrant first. Your comments please.
Tks
Robert

[MalahatTwo7]

I have no ability to answer your question, but I do have one in return.

Is Chesley anywhere Waterton? Just wondering, on account of the nature of your question.


(I'm originally from BC 100% born and raised )

[emsrbell]

MalahatTwo7

Yes, we are located approx 20 km from Walkerton. Since that water tragedy, there has been millions spent (some good, some not so good). Thus this posting. Our Water Department puts on a backflow valve even when they are just flushing the hydrants.
Tks
Robert

[MalahatTwo7]

Thanks Robert. It does certainly support the concern for backwash from the Engine to the main water systems. Kinda odd to see/hear someone in politics actually have a bit of forward thinking.....

[emsrbell]

MalahatTwo7

Forward thinking indeed. They just avoided the resignation of two Chief Officer's from one of their three stations as a result of a letter, issued by their CAO, with alligations of STEALING water for members own use. Water use in our Municipality has become a very very hot issue.
Tks
Robert

[MalahatTwo7]

Stealing water? In what manner?

[emsrbell]

Filling of swimming pools without authorization and payment. Which was false. Our Municipality charges $100 to fill pools which is done by the Water Dept. As well, washing of personal vehicle's at the station. This part of the Municipality is on metered water. Guess someone thought they should use their own water. Perhaps no more using POV for FD buisness. If I new how to, I would post some of the media accounts.

[emsrbell]

As for your Quote, this CAO will never acknowledge fault.

[Bones42]

Think about it. The water in your hydrant system gets there from your water department, whether through the pressure created by coming down from a wate tower or by pumps. For you to contanimate backwards to the drinking supply, you would have to overcome that pressure. Unless you are supplying a hydrant instead of getting a supply from it (which I can't imagine anyone doing) it ain't gonna happen.

[emsrbell]

MalahatTwo7

I will attempt this attachment:

Council moves to end fire flap; Arran-Elderslie to hold special meeting about allegations of improper water use

MARY GOLEM
Local News - Wednesday, August 23, 2006 @ 08:00

Arran-Elderslie council will hold a special meeting Thursday night to deal with ill feelings between the Paisley Fire Department and members of council.

Arran-Elderslie Mayor Ron Oswald said the 7 p.m. meeting will be a closed door session "because it involves personnel" but will include fire committee representatives from the municipalities of Brockton, South Bruce and Kincardine which all pay a share of operating costs for the Paisley Fire Department.

Paisley firefighters are upset about a letter sent to Chief Brian Cumming in late June by Arran-Elderslie clerk/chief administrative officer Joan Albright regarding complaints council had received that Paisley firefighters were using municipal water for their own purposes.

The allegations have angered fire department personnel. Cumming and Deputy Chief Jeff Tanner have reportedly handed their resignations to the fire committee. Attempts to contact Cumming and Tanner have failed and phone messages have not been returned.


Dan Kerr, a member of the department for almost 11 years, said fire department personnel met Sunday night to discuss the situation "and attempted to talk the chief and deputy out of resigning.

The chief has not withdrawn his letter of resignation and the deputy, for now, will stay on as a firefighter only but not in a position of authority.

"We all agreed we will not quit because of the overwhelming support we have received from the community," Kerr added. "We continue to ask for an apology from the CAO and now the council for supporting the actions of the CAO. We want all of the community to contact their elected officials to find out why they do not support the fire department."

Oswald maintains "the whole situation has been blown way out of proportion" and he's hoping the issue can be resolved at Thursday night's meeting.

According to Albright, members of council and staff received complaints that Paisley firefighters were using municipal water for washing their personal vehicles at the Paisley Fire Hall and filling their backyard pools from the municipality's fire hydrants.

Deputy-mayor Mary Cumming of Paisley reported the complaints to council and asked that a letter be sent from the Arran-Elderslie municipal office to Cumming, asking him to investigate the complaints.

"Both activities, if correct, cost the Municipality and the Paisley ratepayers in lost revenue, add water costs to the municipal partners in the Paisley Fire Department, skew the water pumpage statistics compared to the water usage statistics and generally discredit the conduct of all firefighters, not just the few who may be

stealing water for their own use," reads the June 20 letter from the municipality to Cumming.

As required by the Ministry of the Environment, Albright noted, Arran-Elderslie has a fire hydrant control policy that provides firefighters access to hydrants for fighting fires only. "The firefighters are not authorized to operate a fire hydrant for any purpose other than firefighting."

Albright explained that upon receiving the complaints, council felt it only fair to give Cumming an opportunity to investigate the complaints and, if found to be correct, to have the practices stopped.

However, at least one member of the Paisley Fire Department says he "cannot believe the alleged "theft" of water by the members of the Paisley Fire Department."

Kerr confirmed Tanner did fill his swimming pool earlier this year using a hose from a hydrant, but did so only after first consulting with the municipality's water foreman. He was told there would be a $100 charge, which he agreed to pay.

[MalahatTwo7]

Although the details of this story are different, it has the sound of familiarity to it. I wont go into details here - its been done enough already, but PM me if you'd like to know.

In any case, I wish the best of luck in sorting this out in an amicable way for everyone concerned. Good luck.

[Dickey]

... For you to contanimate backwards to the drinking supply, you would have to overcome that pressure. Unless you are supplying a hydrant instead of getting a supply from it (which I can't imagine anyone doing) it ain't gonna happen.

Very true. Unless your pumper is pumping into the hydrant, it is not going to happen.

Even if there is bacteria in the pump from the last fire using a creek, stream or lake, the first hundred gallons of water from the hydrant will kill that with the treatments already in the water. On most systems, the pressure is so that the pumper would have to pump almost at capacity to "back flow" a hydrant.

Possible-yes. Probable- no.

It's possible we could win the lottery too or get struck by lightning as well.

[hwoods]

Well...............

I am aware of a situation where one small town's water system failed, and they were connected to the next Town's system with two 2,200 ft 5in. LDH Lines, and with a 1,750 Engine boosting the pressure. There were no problems due to this operation, at least none that made it into the news.

Separately, Canada is weird. We have all the FREE water that we want at each Fire Station, the Training Academy, and wherever else we need it. We use water from the system for Training burns (old structures) as well. This is EXPECTED here, and we do not have complaints. Being predominately Volunteer, we supply materials, including the hose and water, to encourage our people to wash their cars at the station. Call it a perk, a morale builder, or whatever, it's another way of attracting folks to be at the station. We wouldn't have it any other way. Our pool filling operation is that a person must get a meter from the water company and put it on the hydrant that they want to use, they are billed for the amount of water. Commercial pool filling tankers have a meter attached to the truck intakes. All meters have a backflow preventing valve built in.

[E229Lt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones42
... For you to contanimate backwards to the drinking supply, you would have to overcome that pressure. Unless you are supplying a hydrant instead of getting a supply from it (which I can't imagine anyone doing) it ain't gonna happen.

Very true. Unless your pumper is pumping into the hydrant, it is not going to happen.

Even if there is bacteria in the pump from the last fire using a creek, stream or lake, the first hundred gallons of water from the hydrant will kill that with the treatments already in the water. On most systems, the pressure is so that the pumper would have to pump almost at capacity to "back flow" a hydrant.

Possible-yes. Probable- no.

It's possible we could win the lottery too or get struck by lightning as well.

I have to disagree with both these quotes 100%.

No rigs containing or using a non-potable water source should be connected to any other apparatus hooked up to municpal water supplies. While there are numerous examples I will offer one:

Your engine is connected to a hydrant at 50 psi and requires augmenting to supply numerous lines. The augmenting engine is drafting water from a pond, river or other natural source. As the augmenting engine supplies water to the first engine at anything over 50 psi, water WILL flow into the hydrant system.

The same would be true for any apparatus in the supply chain which do not have clapper valves or have faulty valves on their appliances.

We have strict rules and SOPs in my department to avoid such contamination of municipal water.

[Bones42]

Like I said, unless you overcome the pressure coming from the hydrant, it's not a problem. Is it possible? Sure. Probable? No.