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  • #16
    Originally posted by CTJAKE
    I think they should do this for doctors as well. Make sure everyone passes the test, especially the tougher specialties. While they're at it, lawyers, accountants, school teachers, etc.. What's the difference?? Do you want a doctor who scored a 98 or a 58?
    I was going to say the same thing.


    • #17
      Originally posted by t13one12
      Ok, I lied, one more post. I hope I did not lead you to believe that I am against women being firefighters, because I think I'm getting that hint in your last post firetruckred.

      I don't believe that women or minorities should be restricted in any way, but to cater to either one in order to boost the numbers seems ludicrous.

      It shouldn't matter how many of x's, y's, and z's you have in a department.
      I did not think you meant that. You stated you didn't mean that.

      I am a woman and I thought you wanted my opinion on the subject you brought up. At least that is what I thought it looked like, so I was trying to help. Sorry, No worries.

      I already stated my personal feelings about this subject then I saw your post and I thought you wanted me or a woman to answer you.

      I am against them lowering the standards. What they are saying is ok we will let less intelligent folk in but will increase in training to make up for their lesser education. I think it is ashame. They themselves are saying the minority are less intelligent than the white man. I am not saying it.

      I will say it again. If you can't cut it, do yourself and everyone else a favor and stay out, don't try to get in. If you can cut it then you deserve a chance to serve.

      I am smart enough to know my limitations and my strengths. There is no way I am cut out for FDNY. Most people know this. This is giving people a chance?
      What has changed with fighting fires in NY? It is not easier. So why drop the standards and make it easier to get in?
      Last edited by firetruckred; 08-09-2006, 11:07 PM.


      • #18
        To me it is not about how many credit hours you may have, it is about seeing what the requirements are and if you want it bad enough you will get it done. I don't think credit hours are a good indicator of how good a firefighter you will be, it shows you will take the initative and meet or exceed the requirements. Around here some departments require NREMT-B or better, do we relax that because some people don't have the time or drive to get that done? I think not, bad idea. People is people and the best qualified should get the job!
        Last edited by Stewart46; 08-08-2006, 04:53 PM.


        • #19
          Originally posted by Stewart46
          To me it is not about how many credit hours you may have, it is about seeing what the requirements are and if you want it bad enough you will get it done. I don't think credit hours are a good indicator of how good a firefighter you will be, it shows you will take the imitative and meet or exceed the requirements. Around here some departments require NREMT-B or better, do we relax that because some people don't have the time or drive to get that done? I think not, bad idea. People is people and the best qualified should get the job!
          I disagree. Your education is AS important as anything else.

          There is a reason they have those standards. Alot of reasons.

          First of all you only get top notch people, hopefully weed out the less intelligent and

          second of all being a college graduate, a parent while in college, working, etc etc etc. I busted my butt to earn the education I have. Did I need to learn all the stuff I know, NO. It is not about that. It is mostly about your DRIVE, I agree, How bad do you to want it, how hard are you going to work. But it is also about your education. What are your habits. That is why they like military, you are already conditioned . 50% of the people that took the same Board exam I did, failed it. I received all high scores in all areas of my final National Board Exam. Why? cause I studied my butt off making sure I know what I am suppose to know. That is called discipline. Not slide by. (That's what they are looking for) Am I smarter than most, was it easier for me, NO. I wanted it and I needed it for my profession and survival.

          In my profession, and where I lived to practice, they want to make sure you are the best and nothing less. It saves lives, prevents injury and from alot people sueing you. So my opinion still stands. If you can't cut it go somewhere else or do what is necessary to make it happen.

          I looked up New Yorks college credit hours against my state FL and you have to earn almost twice as much. Why? Cause it's New York. The best of the best.
          Last edited by firetruckred; 08-08-2006, 03:06 PM.


          • #20
            Substandard hiring practices hurt everyone. Just because minorities aren't applying for a job doesn't mean we should lower entry level requirements, or testing. Pathetic.


            • #21
              The victim in the burning apartment probably doesn't care what color skin the firefighters have.


              • #22
                Then reason the recruitment fails is because THEY DONT WANT THE JOB. Most of the target market the city wants have seen fires.....NEVER once have I or anyone in my house had someone come up to us after a job and say "looks cool were do I sign up?" The whole thing is a shame.....especially for the Vulcans. For someone to advocate lowering the standards just says "we'll make it easy for you, b/c you're too stupid to pass a simple test" A test and hiring practice that is completely color blind. I especially love the part about 6 months work experiance and 15 credits....OR 2 years military....like 6 months work and/or 1 semester of college is anything remotley the same as 2 years in the military.....yes...another slap in the face. Utter BS....but I dont forsee this helping any...nothing else in the past has worked....plane and simple....they don't want the job!!!! City residency didn't work, EMS merger and Promotion didn't work, and nor will this...BUT heck...the next step is just hire the guy off the street.....
                IACOJ Member


                • #23
                  Fighting back!

                  From the paper Philadelphia Weekly a weekly free publication here in Philly

                  Fanning the Flames

                  Racial tensions run hot in the city’s Fire Department.

                  by Mike Newall

                  Tensions brewing in the Philadelphia Fire Department in recent months deepened recently when five firefighters filed a complaint with the Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations. In their complaint the men allege the department’s promotional practices unfairly benefit minorities.

                  The complaint represents the opening salvo of a class-action lawsuit expected to reach federal court sometime early this fall.

                  The complaint alleges the department employs an unfair and loosely defined system that allows lower-scoring minorities to advance to the written portion of the exam at the expense of higher scoring applicants. It also claims the department appoints a disproportionate number of minority “assessors” to oversee the verbal portions of promotional exams. These assessors, says the complaint, treat minorities preferentially.

                  The Fire Department, the city of Philadelphia, Club Valiants—Philly’s black firefighter organization—and the International Association of Black Professional Fire Fighters are all named as defendants. Similar suits elsewhere have resulted in payouts for damages, and forced several fire departments to overhaul their promotional practices.

                  Fire commissioner Lloyd Ayers, a former Club Valiants president, didn’t return calls for comment. Neither did the mayor’s office.


                  Results from last summer’s promotional exam show that some minority candidates had as many as 27 points tacked onto their written scores. These extra points bumped the candidates up to the required passing grade of 70, and allowed them to progress on to the oral exam.

                  “Based on information and belief the candidates who received pass points were disproportionately black,” reads the complaint.

                  The complaint didn’t include a detailed breakdown of how the curve affected candidates’ scores.

                  Twelve of the 14 assessors who administered the oral examination were minorities. The complaint alleges plaintiffs had crucial points deducted for seemingly insignificant infractions, such as “bad body language” and “being to [sic] wordy.”

                  The complaint says many candidates who scored poorly on the written exam excelled at the oral boards and didn’t receive the harsh grading their peers did. According to paperwork obtained by the Philadelphia chapter of the Concerned American Fire Fighters Association (CAFFA), a Chicago-based group that describes itself as a “watchdog organization fighting for fair promotional and hiring practices,” nine of the 11 blacks who took the oral exam finished among the top 24 overall highest scorers, more likely ensuring them promotions.

                  “It’s believed that the plaintiffs’ scores were held lower and depressed on account of their race,” reads the complaint, “and that African-American candidates were given favor and higher scores on oral tests on account of their race.”

                  The complaint doesn’t include information to prove this accusation.

                  The complaint says an unnamed high-ranking African-American chief addressed the assessors before the oral exam, and stressed that Philly is in “dire need of minority and female officers.”


                  Tension among the rank and file has intensified as the department’s hiring practices have come under increased scrutiny. For years a court-ordered consent decree has mandated that each class of fire recruits be 12 percent African-American.

                  In 2004, 400 white firefighters banded together to form the Philadelphia chapter of CAFFA. The group called for the abolition of the decree, arguing it was outdated and discriminatory, and routinely abused by department brass. They pointed to personnel records showing that from 1997 to 2002 the department hired 80 black candidates in place of white candidates with higher scores.

                  They claim that in one class of recruits more than 800 higher-scoring candidates were passed over before the department could fulfill the decree. And in the most recent fire cadet class, which started training last month, the department hired nine more black candidates than the decree mandated.

                  Philly CAFFA, which now boasts more than 650 members—roughly one-third of the rank and file—has stirred the emotions of a department stained by an ugly racial past. (The department wasn’t fully integrated until the ’50s.)

                  Commissioner Ayers refuses to meet with CAFFA. Late last year a Club Valiants board member sent an email encouraging blacks to withdraw from the Philadelphia Fire Fighters’ Union. The board member believed union leadership was assis-ting CAFFA’s efforts to end the decree.

                  “It’s time to step away from master,” read the email.

                  CAFFA denied those accusations by claiming union leadership wasn’t doing enough to help white firefighters. Union president Brian McBride—elected just last year—must try to make both factions happy. (It’s unlikely he can retain his position in next spring’s elections without the support of African-American union members. If he’s seen as sympathetic to Club Valiants, he may lose the support of white firefighters.)

                  “Part of the oath I took as president was to promote fellowship,” says McBride. “That’s what I’m trying to do. Black, white. Whatever. We’re all blue. We’re all firemen.”

                  McBride tried to initiate discussion between the presidents of CAFFA and Club Valiants during two recent gatherings of the department’s ethnic associations.

                  “Nothing was accomplished,” says a firefighter who attended the meeting. “Tensions are even higher now.”

                  The number of angry, angst- ridden—and often ignorant and misspelled—missives posted on Domelights.com, an online bulletin board for Philly cops and firefighters, has greatly increased in recent months. Whites dominate the discourse on Domelights. There was this recent post:

                  “How can one race spend their entire careers screaming about racism, going to court, crying to the press, etc, etc. then the very second they are in power, do the exact same things they’ve been screaming about to another race? They are disgusting!”

                  In February Joseph Montague, the vice president of CAFFA and a lieutenant at a firehouse in Mt. Airy, showed up to work to find a pillowcase inscribed with “KKKaffa” hanging from his locker. Below the inscription was a pair of drawn-on eyes.

                  A black firefighter has since been fired over the incident.

                  In a Daily News article following the firefighter’s dismissal, Commissioner Ayers refused to call the incident a hate crime, infuriating many white firemen.


                  In an interview earlier this year Club Valiants president Capt. Derrick Sawyer acknowledged the rising tension.

                  “It’s a very tough situation,” he said. “You have two very different perspectives. Two very different cultures. And it’s going to be hard to get them to see things in the same light.”

                  Sawyer said he’s willing to discuss replacing the controversial decree with an “alternate measure to ensure diversity.” But he quickly added, “I’ve been in the department for 20 years, and have never heard anybody come up with a better idea. All they say is, ‘It’s outdated. Let’s get rid of it.’ But I think if we ended the decree today, we’d be revisiting the past. We’d have no other policy to ensure diversity.”

                  The department, said Sawyer, needs to increase its minority recruiting efforts, which now take place every four years in preparation for the entrance exam. (Last year’s recruiting team hoped to enlist 10,000 minorities for the entrance exam. Only 1,100 wound up applying, and a mere 620 blacks and Hispanics made the hiring list.)

                  “Our recruitment efforts need to be ongoing and permanent,” said Sawyer.

                  Union president McBride hasn’t read the complaint, and is hesitant to comment on how it may affect morale in the department.

                  “We’re no different from any other big organization,” he says. “We have our problems, but we’re trying our best to work them out.”
                  Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.


                  • #24
                    "Last year’s recruiting team hoped to enlist 10,000 minorities for the entrance exam. Only 1,100 wound up applying, and a mere 620 blacks and Hispanics made the hiring list."

                    This is a telling quote. The recruiting team (all minorities detailed to this "unit") set out to enlist 10,000 minority applicants. They only reached 10% of their OWN goal. Only 620 of which actually passed the test. A test so simple it resembles a paint by numbers picture or coloring book. It not my fault, the departments fault, the citys fault, the states fault or the feds faulth that they fail to apply for the job and when they do, they do poorly on a test specifically made easier so to increase their numbers. Believe this, its not a coincidence that all these "unfair hiring practice" law suits are popping up all at once. I believe there is a concentrated effort by the IABPFF to lower hiring standards so as to increase their numbers. Im not opposed to working with minorities, I crawl the halls with a bunch who are down right good people. I fully oppose the lowering of standards in an attempt to increase any one demographic.

                    On a related note, I wonder why nobody is screaming that the sanitation department or streets department should have "equal representation of the population" I guess the brothers dont want to have hundreds of brothers fired from those departments to make room for whitey.
                    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.


                    • #25
                      When operating this pump panel ---

                      Please press 1 for gauges in english

                      Please press 2 for gauges in spanish

                      I's gots to axem when the new gauges be commin so I can try'em boff.
                      If I'm not here I'm on http://ctfire-ems.com/indexc.php


                      • #26
                        I's gots to axem when the new gauges be commin so I can try'em boff.

                        poor attempt at humor.
                        Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by PFDTruck18
                          I's gots to axem when the new gauges be commin so I can try'em boff.

                          poor attempt at humor.
                          Sad part is.....its true.
                          IACOJ Member


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by elswappo
                            The victim in the burning apartment probably doesn't care what color skin the firefighters have.
                            Your right and neither does a FF. That is not the issue. The issue is.. there is a group who represents a race saying lower your standards of education so we can get in. Point blank.

                            That is so out right ignorant.

                            I am for anybody who want to join except people who want it on "their" terms.

                            That's wrong. I don't care how you slice it.

                            What happened to earning it. Oh that is to Old school. I tell ya what.... why don't ya hire some painsy *** down the street, station him at your neighborhood Dept let him mess up a few times on your house, and then come back and say well we needed more numbers.

                            I will be the first to say I know what it feels like to be outright blatently discriminated against in my face for no reason at all, I think that is NOT what is happening here.

                            It is my opinion that ...

                            There is a certain type of people that are attractive to the FD and that is all it boils down to.

                            This group doesn't understand that.

                            Most are catholic/christian in the FD up North and there is a way things have been for a while that attracts family and a certain type of person. One who appreciates hard work and dedication. It isn't race or religion thing people. It is an understood why of life. It is tradition that keeps the FD alive. Geezz if it was a race thing do you think they would work and risk their lives (in and out of the ghetto) to save your house.

                            Not a lot of woman are attracted to firetrucks instead of fireman. The ones that are, are Damn good! I am sure it is the same with a % of people in a race. If they are attracted to it and love it, they go for it. You don't have to be cohearsed. It is either in your heart and blood or not.

                            I don't think it's race or gender thing in most cases. Not alot of woman want to get dirty, hot and wet .... I just thought I would throw that in there and lighten things up.
                            Last edited by firetruckred; 08-09-2006, 12:09 AM.


                            • #29
                              Fella's and dames. I have to say.... I am a little upset for a few reasons other than this NY News. I have not ever gone off like this before on here and I apologize for anything that may have been taken wrong.

                              We are going thru some really tough times here in my county. I am irate about it cause it is more ignorant than this situation, trust me.

                              Last edited by firetruckred; 08-09-2006, 03:38 PM.


                              • #30
                                To all in this thread I just watched something awesome and encourging in another thread. You have got to see this. Brutal honesty about selflessness sacrifice, honor and loyalty.



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