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  • Rescue101
    replied
    I think it depends on geography.Up here they were engine guys 'cause you dragged your knuckles off humping line.We refer to the truckies as Mongo,for your listed reasons. T.C.

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  • BD6413
    replied
    Rescue101,

    Maybe I'm wrong but aren't the knuckle draggers the truck guys ? Stories have it that the term knuckle dragger relates to the primate and / or neanderthawl type meaning that those in that capacity walk through walls, bust windows {with out checking to see if it's locked or not} work above the fire without water protection, and pull victims out of a structure by dragging thier pray simular to a primate.

    I herd that story more than once over the years but like In said I could be mis-lead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    I've been a "knuckledragger"(Engineman)for most of my career.That does not preclude the fact of being fully knowledgeable and capable of doing good truck work,something that I've done numerous times as the need arose.Like Ken,I'm also a Chief officer and I've lost neither my balls nor my seat.Our personnel come first,and anyone who's followed the recent changes we've endured knows that.Do more with less? Yep,suck it up and get used to it.With families working two people and two or more jobs,help is getting harder and harder to come by.Couple that to employers not allowing FF staff to leave and one can certainly see the reasoning behind automatic aid.And FF's are not the only ones suffering from the decreases it affects the officers too.At a recent structure fire a choice was made in water supply to supply the attack Engine with a portable from the lake(200 ft away) rather than lay a half a mile of hose to the boat launch.The attending Chief took a look at the existing manpower pool and concluded that the portable would supply sufficent water for the job without further tiring an already beat first in crew.The incoming second alarm personnel finished up and were spared the labor of picking up a half mile of LDH. T,C.

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  • t13one12
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods
    Bones has pretty well summed it up for us too. We ran a Tower Ladder from 1970 until 3 months ago. We started with a 1970 Sutphen, which we used until we wore it out and sold it to Honey Creek, Indiana in 1991, we then accepted a Seagrave Apollo 105' Tower, purchased by our County government, for our use. The Seagrave had been one problem after another until it was taken out of service permanently in April of this year. HOWEVER, we still do Truck work anyway, and I have some folks that are damned good at it. A few weeks back we had a job, and the first truck arrived to find ladders already thrown, Vent work well under way, and the utilities secured. The Truckies arrived on our Heavy Rescue (we call them "Squads") and went to work, with no problems at all. Having a Truck is necessary if you are providing an elevated master stream, but all other Truck duties can be handled by a good crew without the Vehicle.
    That was the first thing the instructors said when I took my truck company operations class at my county training center (State certified class). They asked what guys there belonged to companies or departments with trucks and only about half of us did. I think it's a great idea for anyone who does not own a truck or does not train regularly doing "truck work" to do so. I applaud all those "engineman" who train on the truck, and the truckies who train with the engine. The only thing that can happen is you are a better firefighter.

    Now that doesn't mean that I won't take part in the ribbing of course

    The essential tasks on a fireground must be completed regardless of what apparatus may or may not be on scene. In my department we have 3 engines and a truck. Often times when a job is large enough, it requires more than just the manpower on our truck on arrival, so one of the other engine companies that is coming in (usually the third due) will assume truck responsibilities. Heck, the one engine tends to be third due to a lot of our calls and nicknamed themselves the squad company of our department.

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  • hwoods
    replied
    And.............

    Bones has pretty well summed it up for us too. We ran a Tower Ladder from 1970 until 3 months ago. We started with a 1970 Sutphen, which we used until we wore it out and sold it to Honey Creek, Indiana in 1991, we then accepted a Seagrave Apollo 105' Tower, purchased by our County government, for our use. The Seagrave had been one problem after another until it was taken out of service permanently in April of this year. HOWEVER, we still do Truck work anyway, and I have some folks that are damned good at it. A few weeks back we had a job, and the first truck arrived to find ladders already thrown, Vent work well under way, and the utilities secured. The Truckies arrived on our Heavy Rescue (we call them "Squads") and went to work, with no problems at all. Having a Truck is necessary if you are providing an elevated master stream, but all other Truck duties can be handled by a good crew without the Vehicle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    hmmm, I do an awful lot of "truck" work.....from my engine.

    Let's see, we run with 6 FF's on it.

    Driver
    Officer
    Can
    Irons
    Roof
    OV

    Those are the 6 positions. Officer, can, irons are interior. Other 3 are exterior.

    No big deal.

    Leave a comment:


  • F52Westside
    replied
    Originally posted by k3twpfire
    This all fine and dandy but do you put smoothbores or fogs on the truck??

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  • k3twpfire
    replied
    This all fine and dandy but do you put smoothbores or fogs on the truck??

    Leave a comment:


  • F52Westside
    replied
    Originally posted by hustond
    Now that I'm done ranting and raving, I don't know what to tell you about your truck vs. engine company. Maybe I'm just lucky that we're small enough yet (650 calls/year - 70% EMS and we have an engine and a truck) that we don't have to worry about this yet. But I will say that for the time being or until I'm educated more (maybe I need another bugle) I expect my Fire Fighters to get on the needed apparatus and do the required jobs.

    DPH
    Chief you summed it up in the last line. That is the way it should be.

    Originally posted by SAFD46Truck
    In my experience the Truck vs. Engine thing has just been good natured ribbing for the most part.
    46 - And for the most part, that is how I took alot of the talk, just ribbing. This post did not sound like that.

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  • hustond
    replied
    Chief Officers

    Mulldog,
    I too thought that the point you were trying to make after reading you last post didn't come through all that well. I like Ken am a Chief Officer and will agree with his description of the admin "hell" we get to play in. Reading your last post you bring out other items that to me do not directly or indirectly have anything to do with truck or engine companies. The items you are talking about and seem to have issues with should and could be easily dealt with if chosen to be. Being a combo department we don't have the luxery of having a large number of people to respond to all calls (especially during the day). For this exact reason we deemed it appropriate to setup automatic mutual aid with two neighboring departments. I like you would much rather have it automatically be tripped and have to send them home instead of waiting an extra 10 - 20 minutes for someone else to show up.
    I would also like to state that regardless of what profession you are in, I think it's safe to say that everyone has been and will continue to do more with less. While I agree that this scenario being alright or OK in the money holders eyes is not fair, good, what ever you want to call it, but it's the way things work. Hey, just look around and you will see that people trading stocks or working on computers make more than we do. What kind of message as a society does that send? Do people really believe that making computers talk to each other is more important than paying someone to protect their property or life? No, I don't really think so, but we like every other public service are never valued until we are needed and even then, we are always late, got something dirty or broke something we shouldn't have.
    I would also like to say that the point about selling out my "spine" for bugles and a car was a pretty harsh statement. Regardless of what we are able to get done financially or planning wise, nothing is more important to me than my crews safety. And having them do more with less is one of the most stressfull situations you can put an Officer in, especially when they are knee deep in the ****. I can gaurantee that every Cheif Officer continues to try to get more help and better equipment evey year, it's our goal and whether or not we get it done, we will continue to fight for our portion of the pie and make the department better.
    Now that I'm done ranting and raving, I don't know what to tell you about your truck vs. engine company. Maybe I'm just lucky that we're small enough yet (650 calls/year - 70% EMS and we have an engine and a truck) that we don't have to worry about this yet. But I will say that for the time being or until I'm educated more (maybe I need another bugle) I expect my Fire Fighters to get on the needed apparatus and do the required jobs.

    DPH

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  • Mulldog
    replied
    To KenNFD1219

    Chief,
    I would hope that you would take offense to my comments. You are doing everything possible to increase your abilities and I applaud you for your efforts and also find it unfortunate that you have come up against a brick wall. You may or may not be in the majority, the only people that know that answer look in the mirror each morning.

    My point is truck work has been overlooked not because of what type of vehicle they arrive on BUT the number of people on scene and the number of tasks that need to be done on a true job do not equal out in the majority of the departments today. People and or crews are finding themselves having to multi task and prioritize their tasks due to the amount of manpower available and shortcuts are made which sometimes have devistating effects and that should be found unacceptable.

    Mutual aid and or assistance is a wonderful tool for management and should be used to its fullest extent to suppliment the manpower needed for the job. It should be called early to guarantee that adequate staffing arrives as early as possible to get control of the incident. We should not be waiting until we arrive on scene to realize we're behind the 8 ball. You can always turn them around if you arrive to a BS call.

    While I have not directly worked on the administrative side of the department, I have been on comittees that has made purchases, reccomendations and plans. So to an extent I do have an idea of the restrictions and barriers you face. I will concede to walking a mile in your shoes.

    My comment of selling out.....I could have chosen a better phrase and I appologize to you for that term. I hope you understand and agree with my point though. It is not about the size of the department or the equipment they have, my point is about finding the resourses from wherever they are and calling for them early enough to overcome the situation faced everyday in the fire service.

    You talk with Chiefs from all over the country.....how many of them are willing to do this, set their pride aside and explain to their bosses that the reason they do this is because they are adapting to the cards they were dealt.
    Last edited by Mulldog; 08-07-2006, 11:29 PM.

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  • SAFD46Truck
    replied
    Originally posted by F52Westside
    46 there is no doubt trkco has good points. Just get rid of the Truckie vs. Engine thing. This job is about being a firefighter and knowing as much as possible about getting the job done. It is not, well I am a Truckie I am better at this job or we do more. When it comes down to it Truckies and the Hose Jockeys are "FIREFIGHTERS", do it all and get it done.
    Ok, I will go along with that. In my experience the Truck vs. Engine thing has just been good natured ribbing for the most part. I guess the part about just having a truck with a ladder does not mean you have a true "truck company", rings true to me. If certain fireground duties (ie, complete primary and secondary searches, thorough salvage & overhaul etc.) were lacking or neglected before, just buying a new apparattus isn't a quick fix.

    Leave a comment:


  • KenNFD1219
    replied
    Originally posted by Mulldog
    As much as I agree with most of the post I place the blame on the Chiefs that have traded their spine for a bugle and their balls for a vehicle. They are the ones that are requiring us to do more with less and not acknowledging the staffing shortages on jobs that require multiple tasks be done. These are the same guys that stand up and self proclaim they are proactive and do nothing about the increased call volume with minimzed staffing.
    As a chief officer, I take offense at your comments. While I do know of SOME chiefs who have sold out to politicians, most of us have not. My chief and I are working to increase staffing and build a third fire station. Just because the FD wants it, does not mean it gets done. Unfortunately, as a chief officer you must work through the politics and finances of staffing and equipment. It is not easy and, like it or not, it can take several years.


    Sometimes, I do require the firefighters on my department to do more with less, not because I sold out for four bugles and a car, but because their is no money available. Remember that chiefs have bosses too, be it a fire commission, town board, or mayor. For example, the chief and I submit a budget for X dollars. We present our case with facts and figures (and color glossy 8x10 photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one is all about ). The town finanace board usually thanks us for a great presentation and then cuts it to a little above the previous years inadequate budget. There is no recourse and limited support to increase the budget. However, the fire and rescue calls still come and we still respond.

    Last year, I made my third presentation to the finance board to increase the staffing on our only ladder truck from 2 firefighters to an offcier and two firefighters. No interest from the finance people.

    I consider myself proactive in spite of this. Ever since I became an officer in 1990, I have told my crews to work within the constraints of our limited staffing. An initial response of 8 fire fighters cannot do the work of 14.

    Have you ever worked on the administration side of the department? We had a line officer promote to the admin side last year. After a month he said "I never knew all the work that went on behind the scenes". Most of the members think we drink coffee and tell jokes all day.

    IMHO, every line officer should have exposure administrative prosess of the department as part of their training. You will then see that many things are beyond the control of the chief.

    I talk with chiefs from all over the state as well as across the country. Career or volunteer, big or small department, it is almost always the same story when dealing with funding for adequate staffing, equipment, and stations. It rarely has anything to do with selling out.
    Last edited by KenNFD1219; 08-07-2006, 07:05 PM.

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  • BD6413
    replied
    Sounds like trkcoEMT is either from one of those Prince Geroges County Maryland Companies that has major ego problems, or wishes he was part of one of them.....or belongs to a fire company that recentley had it's cheerios ****ed in and was pulled off responses because neighboring companies either purchased a ladder or no longer require their services.

    I'm gonna' go with the my 2nd. guess {The PGFD thing was just simple fun poking....Nothing intentional }

    trkcoEMT when you go to basic firefighting you are taught how to operate in both capacities {Engine and Ladder Company Functions} - In this day and age especially in the Volunteer World the rank and file is declining and we often have to double and triple role at a fire scene so I don't see how any of your disagreements about firefighters that belong to engine only companies can't be "truckies" -- Sure they can......Did you once supply assisitiance to a neighboring community that pulled you off ? Most guys who post this retarded horse sh** are usually disgruntled over such dramatic disputes.

    If not than what's your beef ? Fire Academys don't train "Trukies" and Engine Personnel as individuals. They Train Firefighters.

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  • SteveDude
    replied
    So, erm what about the rest of the World including the UK...we combined the whole Engine/Ladder thing around about the 1880's.... we don't have Truckies...experienced or otherwise... Just Firefighters and that goes for the rest of the World more or less (barring the USA/Canada and some of their Territories & interests... The World is still standing and we didn't burn to death.

    (BTW, some of the best fun I ever had in the US was riding with Truck Co's...I love 'em... but it don't mean to say you can't live without them. )

    Leave a comment:

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